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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

School newsletter tells girls how to bind

369 replies

ErrolTheDragon · 09/05/2021 07:56

There's a piece in the Times today ... parents not happy at the content of a newsletter produced by the 6th formers

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nonsuch-high-school-sixth-formers-told-girls-11-how-to-bind-breasts-k7slvrbkr?shareToken=a84af706d3b638e2ea3d2d53ea04e29d

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OldCrone · 09/05/2021 12:11

[quote spoonrider]@Shizuku

”Just listen to yourself. There is no concern for the trans kids themselves here - there is only concern about anything that might facilitate their existence as trans kids.”

Exactly this. But it’s because most here seem to believe a trans person is about 50 years old. They can’t conceive of knowing when you’re young, despite many trans people talking about how they do.[/quote]
And there are also lots more people who think they want to be the opposite sex when they are children who no longer think that once they have gone through puberty.

R0wantrees · 09/05/2021 12:13

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AfternoonToffee · 09/05/2021 12:16

@titchy

Come on shiz answer my question. We're talking about a girls school here. Why would a trans boy be happy going to a girls school? How are you going to help them go to the boys school?
Don't expect any answer. The poster seemingly only cares about transboys when it can be used to forward their arguments with "non-men"
spoonrider · 09/05/2021 12:16

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WoolOfBat · 09/05/2021 12:18

But if there were so many “hidden” trans boys years ago, where is the increase in middle aged trans men? Given the acceptance of trans today?

AfternoonToffee · 09/05/2021 12:18

Not feeling safe to come out due to societal attitudes and a compete lack of role models?

So why aren't all us/the women in their 40's coming out in their droves as trans now then?

stonecat · 09/05/2021 12:18

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spoonrider · 09/05/2021 12:18

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stonecat · 09/05/2021 12:21

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spoonrider · 09/05/2021 12:21

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spoonrider · 09/05/2021 12:23

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spoonrider · 09/05/2021 12:23

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spoonrider · 09/05/2021 12:25

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AfternoonToffee · 09/05/2021 12:25

Bold statement there. How do you know that?

Because we are them. I know 'our' lived experience is completely irrelevant and not to be listened to, but (to coin a phrase) we exist too.

stonecat · 09/05/2021 12:25

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R0wantrees · 09/05/2021 12:26

The pillars of transgender medicine are shaking
Recent studies have exposed the flimsiness of much of the evidence
(extract)
In a series of publications doctors have expressed their dismay at the ready availability of gender transitioning and its rapid spread amongst young people.

The Karolinska slams on the brakes
At the moment, the accepted wisdom amongst transgender doctors is the so-called Dutch Protocol. This permits puberty blockers at 12 (and even at 8-9, in some cases). Cross-sex hormones (testosterone for girls and estrogen for boys) begin at 16.

However, this week the world-renowned Karolinska Hospital in Sweden put the brakes on — “a watershed moment”, according to the Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine.

It is the first time that a major hospital has officially deviated from the guidelines issued by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health.

The Karolinska declared in a press release that Swedish government investigations had”

"showed a lack of evidence for both the long-term consequences of the treatments, and the reasons for the large influx of patients in recent years. These treatments are potentially fraught with extensive and irreversible adverse consequences such as cardiovascular disease, osteoporosis, infertility, increased cancer risk, and thrombosis." (continues with further international examples of significant policy change and undertanding)

mercatornet.com/the-pillars-of-transgender-medicine-are-shaking/71798/

PronounssheRa · 09/05/2021 12:27

@persistentwoman

Why is breast ironing a reportable safeguarding issue yet breast binding isn't? What's the difference?
Good question.
R0wantrees · 09/05/2021 12:28

I support full counselling for gender Non-conforming youth

Why should non-conformity to sexist stereotypes in children require counselling?

cakedays · 09/05/2021 12:28

@Shizuku

One thing I would like to suggest is that older trans individuals' lack of growing up as a biological female may mean they do not understand (as women who grew up as girls well before the current fashion for gender ideology), that young teenage girls are highly susceptible to peer pressure and social contagion.

All of us who grew up female know that recurrent and changing social fashions of various forms of "dysphoria" / mental health issues / distress are rife amongst young women - it was anorexia when I was young; eight years later my sister was swept up in a fad for cutting and self harm (much less fashionable now); my younger cousins became obsessed with cosmetic surgery, gym regimes and body modification and makeup in the early 2010s. One of the reasons older women are so resistant to the idea of the "trans child" is that we know from firsthand experience how often young women either yoke themselves into a social fashion or believe something that isn't actually true about themselves.

One of my own research interests is what one might call "historical pathologies" - e.g. mental health "diseases" that appear and become very fashionable for periods of time, and then disappear again as social conditions change (hysteria, neurasthenia, "moral insanity" and so on). Young women were not only extremely susceptible to these diagnostic fashions, but suffered repeated interventions from others which often harmed them, despite masquerading as a "cure". I've been researching these and the history of sexuality for a long time, and I can tell you that the current ways in which the ideology of "gender dysphoria" presents itself, resemble nothing so much as one of those historical pathologies in which a whole range of (often largely women's) mental and social distress suddenly becomes attributed to one specific underlying fashionable cause.

Can't you see that women, with direct experience of these fashions, are justifiably wary of the whole edifice, because we've seen it appear in other ways before? Yes there are always girls with anorexia, and girls who self-harm, but at certain moments it becomes a real social fashion to perform this as a way of acting out mental distress (like pro-ana or cutting).

What happens to your belief if you're wrong? If these are sad and confused young people who have been encouraged to understand a whole host of other mental health issues as bound up with this idea of "gender dysphoria"? And when the malpractice issues start happening more and more, and then the whole thing goes out of fashion, what's going to happen to the idea of "trans" then....?

I just don't understand why older trans people are so gung ho to jump on the idea of "trans kids" as some kind of validation for themselves? Wouldn't it be better for the whole movement not to be associated with loud calls for teenagers and children to be medicalised who are too young to accurately understand what this will involve life-long? Why wouldn't older trans people be urging caution, and the best kind of cautious care for young people with gender dysphoria, so that the whole movement doesn't end up tarred by medical malpractice and a rush to trans kids who may be suffering from a whole host of other kinds of distress instead?

stonecat · 09/05/2021 12:31

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R0wantrees · 09/05/2021 12:31

Why is breast ironing a reportable safeguarding issue yet breast binding isn't? What's the difference?

Guardian
'Revealed: 'dozens' of girls subjected to breast-ironing in UK
Perpetrators consider it a traditional measure to stop unwanted male attention
(extract)
An African practice of “ironing” a girl’s chest with a hot stone to delay breast formation is spreading in the UK, with anecdotal evidence of dozens of recent cases, a Guardian investigation has established.

Community workers in London, Yorkshire, Essex and the West Midlands have told the Guardian of cases in which pre-teen girls from the diaspora of several African countries are subjected to the painful, abusive and ultimately futile practice.

Margaret Nyuydzewira, head of the diaspora group the Came Women and Girls Development Organisation (Cawogido), estimated that at least 1,000 women and girls in the UK had been subjected to the intervention. (continues)

The perpetrators, usually mothers, consider it a traditional measure which protects girls from unwanted male attention, sexual harassment and rape. Medical experts and victims regard it as child abuse which could lead to physical and psychological scars, infections, inability to breastfeed, deformities and breast cancer.

The United Nations describes it as one of five global under-reported crimes relating to gender-based violence. (continues)

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/jan/26/revealed-dozens-of-girls-subjected-to-breast-ironing-in-uk

Helleofabore · 09/05/2021 12:37

Exactly this. But it’s because most here seem to believe a trans person is about 50 years old. They can’t conceive of knowing when you’re young, despite many trans people talking about how they do.

I am not sure you realise that you are on Mumsnet which has a large % of parents and many parents on this board are actually living with young people who identify under the trans umbrella or who have friends that do.

I can tell you from my perspective, I know quite more young trans people than I do 50 year old trans people. I also have a very good idea about the thought processes of a teenage girl, having lived it, experienced through my friends eyes, my family’s eyes, and my teen’s eyes and their friend’s eyes.

I think also I can quite reasonably discuss the implications of this newsletter, like many other parents on this thread.

SteveBuscemisRheumyEye · 09/05/2021 12:40

Wow - we were looking at Nonsuch for DD, this is eye opening

rogdmum · 09/05/2021 12:53

Why do you say that? I support full counselling for gender Non-conforming youth and initial pre-medical screening for co-morbid psychopathologies for trans youth.

Why on earth would a gender nonconforming young person need full counselling ? Hmm

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 09/05/2021 12:58

Thank fuck I was born when I was

That’s exactly what ds1 has said to me

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