GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

I haven’t been called a man hater in ages, it really takes me back!

Repeat after me

Oh, bless you.

I know, Sophocles, it's almost bracing!

Ah yes, woman asserting boundaries equals man-hating. It's a classic

Ah, the good old days when feminists were ugly man haters, mothers were brain-addled tradwives, and women were quiet.

Now look at us, doing it all wrong, and in public, too.

It’s so quaint

I love it, tell me more!

"Repeat after me. Trans women are not men."

Good Lord. So many chestnuts. Old ones.

Repeat after me. Compelled speech is illegal.

You can always tell when a thread has made it to twatter

Is that the “it’s date night” aka “my work here is done” point?

'Repeat after me'.

I would laugh but this smacks of compelled speech. 2021 is starting to feel like '1984' come to life. Are you going to start talking about wrongthink next?

just completing the thought on Katie Dolotowski's victim.

I think the likes of @spoonrider would say 'should males who identify as women be denied access to spaces set aside to preserve women's privacy, dignity and safety just on the basis of this one example?'

And we would say 'should the safety of one little girl take precedence over the feelings of some men? always. absolutely'

and @spoonrider would say 'no, the feelings of those males are more important than her safety'

and thus we will never agree.

i also note that spoonrider attends feminist groups. thus removing one more place where women can meet without the presence of males.

sorry, i should stop taking this seriously

repeat after me: it's date night is the new 'I've got a cake to ice'

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

sorry, i should stop taking this seriously

repeat after me: it's date night is the new 'I've got a cake to ice'

Or as Lady Mary would say "I must go upstairs and take off my hat."

@AlwaysTawnyOwl

The GRA is bad law that should be repealed. We should never have written into law that someone has changed sex by getting a new birth certificate when biologically this is impossible. And what is a GRC actually certifying? Gender is a system of stereotypes so you are certifying that you wish to conform to the stereotypes of the opposite sex. Hardly progressive. Then deal with reality - a TW is a man presenting as a woman, a TM a woman presenting as a man. No trans person should be harrassed or abused for their physical presentation. Treating a TW as a woman is not a problem in many situations, but where sex matters, it matters. So require third spaces - happened at my previous employer, no problem. Suggesting that a self identified TW could pass unnoticed in a womans communal changing room is ludicrous. And a self identified TM in a mens communal changing room would be at risk. And making 'passing' the criteria threatens humiliation for all.

The GRA doesn't say anything about a persons biological sex characteristics, it refers to legal sex, not medical sex.

That seems to be a big problem with people's interpretation of the GRA, the law has nothing to say about someone's status as biologically typically male, or female, or neither. A GRC changes a persons legal sex, that's it.

@MerryDecembermas

Ah yes, woman asserting boundaries equals man-hating. It's a classic

It is a classic. It's so tedious and repetitive, that the word hackneyed springs to mind.

What do you think “legal sex” actually means? Does it have any meaning other than words on a piece of paper? Do you accept that it is a legal fiction?

I think the problem with interpreting it is yours.

Women are very clear about the GRC and the legal ramifications of that.

This is how the thread is going down on twitter:

twitter.com/oolon/status/1390625065834778626

There's talk about getting banned, about being silenced etc and yet here we are, page 17. Maybe MN is true to its word about allowing free speech from different sides.

It's not FeMNist posters that radicalise women...

☀ ☀ ☀

Repeat after me.

Sex is immutable.

Surely taking screenshots over to Twitter is inviting a pile on? Is that breaking talk guidelines I wonder... 🤔

Deliberately making goady posts in an effort to be banned to show that trans voices are silenced on MN and then admitting that actually they aren't deleted is a bit of an own goal really.

'Oh no! We're....not being censored. Even using talk guidelines heavily skewed in my favour and being allowed to use terms which other posters find offensive and which I have previously proven I am allowed to use. The censorship!'

I honestly don't know what the thoughts are of people who say they want to be women yet clearly hate women and women's concerns. Why? Why do you want to be something you are contemptuous of and work to destroy?

cake I think they believe they do feminine better than us. More time spent on haircuts, make-up and nails, possibly sexier clothes?

Most biological women I know are quite busy with children, work and housework...