Wipeout for Labour in Hartlepool

[EmbarrassingAdmissions]

Given the landslide in Hartlepool, will anything make Labour think again about the way in which they've alienated their core voters (including women)?

@TankGirl97

Matt Forde had a good rant on the latest Newscast episode (30 mins in), saying Labour will keep losing because it thinks it's morally superior to the Tories and doesn't seem to understand that the British public is pragmatic in its voting choices.

Spot on.

Great article from Janice Turner, agree with every word. Best summary I've read.
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5323d10c-af69-11eb-9dc9-5a05c2885d62?shareToken=6a314379ef7470f67074438454acfd25

[quote Mollyollydolly]Great article from Janice Turner, agree with every word. Best summary I've read.
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5323d10c-af69-11eb-9dc9-5a05c2885d62?shareToken=6a314379ef7470f67074438454acfd25[/quote]

She's (as usual) spot on.

This was the moment when I really started to question why I was a Labour voter. The utter contempt for the working class and particularly this woman is astonishing and shocking.

Yes Gillian Duffy in Rochdale, and also the white van man with flags. What I remember about the latter is that the media, and probably the LP too, desperately tried to dig up any dirt they could find on him, they didn't find any. He was just some average family man bloke who was supporting his national team in an international football tournament. Sneered at by a shadow cabinet minister for no reason at all.

What does “deliver social justice even mean?”

I could get behind some moderate redistribution to fund education, health and social care. Giving people a fair start in life and a helping hand if they stumble along the way sounds right.

I just fear that for Labour it’s code for some sort of half baked Orwellian/Maoist revolution. There is no straight talk, and even worse they are rigorously policing language and discourse to prevent it from happening.

It’s a no from me. Thank goodness working class people are a lot smarter than Labour give them credit for.

Mollyollydolly
Thanks for that brilliant article from Janice, it summed up my feelings to a tee, and the comments should be made compulsory reading for every Labour MP and constituency worker.

@BlackeyedSusan

We keep bloody telling you why we won't vote for you, Labour, but you are not fucking listening.

I think one problem with that is that a lot of people are telling Labour different and often contradictory things about why they won't vote for them. A lot of people seem to want a return to traditional Labour policies like nationalising public services, investing heavily in industry and a more progressive tax system, but when Labour offered exactly that under Corbyn they were adamant that they couldn't vote for him. Given the evidently personal (rather than policy-based) dislike of the electorate for him, Labour seemed to conclude that they needed a leader with an image more professional, trust-inspiring and small-c conservative. So they got one, their popularity briefly rose a bit then tanked, and their vote in Hartlepool practically halved from 2017.

Something to do with socially conservative values and "anti-wokism" seems to have something to do with it, but even there it's very difficult because just as there are millions of older ex-Labour voters saying that, there were millions of largely younger ex-non-voters energised by Corbyn with precisely the opposite social values, who nearly turned the tide in 2017 but are now leaving the party in droves, depriving it of funding, boots on the ground and votes.

I suspect it's an impossible task, holding all this together (particularly with a Tory-owned media to talk up every sign of a crack). Labour in the 40s and 60s spoke to a much larger, more culturally coherent working class who were much poorer so had more to lose from the Tories. That electorate is not going to reappear any time soon, and what is left of it seems to have a visceral hatred for the socialist urban middle class that have been drafted into Labour to boost its flagging numbers. (Say what you want about middle class woke Labour despising the working class, but the feeling appears to be entirely mutual - so which came first, the chicken or the egg?)

The UK will be Tory for as long as the UK continues to exist, which unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective) might not be very much longer. Most people seem OK with that, I suppose the Tories at least are the devil you know.

Middle class labour has become obsessed with identity politics and isolated so many. Voter apathy with working and lower classes needs to be treated at the root and starmer and corbyn aren't all to blame here. I had to force myself to vote for Labour this time even though i know they think the majority of commoners are thickos who don't know what's good for us, even though we're all branded racists and morons. Its exhausting. I'm starting to not give a crap tbh.

My greatest fantasy is that the middle class get dragged down here with us. Poor British people of all races, abilities and genders are exhausted of being blamed, exhausted of being called stupid, exhausted of being pawns, exhausted of being pandered to. Come suffer with us. Let us strip your children of their educations, job opportunities, homes, stability and futures, may your children join us to whither in this indignity and exhaustion until you finally wake up. I honestly hope it happens. I want to see you all in a state of economic anxiety. I want to see your lives grow rough and hopeless. Then maybe something will give

What exactly do you want these middle class people to DO, once they "wake up"? Being too "obsessed" with gay rights and anti-islamophobia seems like a flimsy reason to prefer an apocolyptic vision of total societal meltdown over simply getting over your class hangups and learning to cooperate with people from a different background.

Brilliant article by Janice Turner. Thanks for sharing @Mollyollydolly

@FifteenToes agree with you. The difficulty is that the political landscape appears to be morphing. Who is working class now? Who thinks of themselves as wc, and why - is it economic, political or cultural? Do other people agree? Do they need a political party for that part of themselves? What do they need or want politically? How many of them are there?

There's certainly a big youth vote who are as a class economically insecure and socially highly progressive. Theres nothing wrong with Labour serving that group. But there's nothing obvious about a coalition with different classes there. And even in that group there will be splits eg about internationalism/globalism.

Peace everyone.

I don't think this is as simple as stupid poor people being to blame, PC obsessed middle classes being to blame, corbyn or starmer being to blame.

There's tonnes of finger pointing and flaws and oversights on every side and to some extent we all have blinkers on. We're living in very convoluted and peculiar times which although may not be ideal, uncomfortable and confusing can be a real opportunity for thinking, listening and self reflection.

No class, race or gender is a monolith and there's never been a time that reflects that more than now. We have to meet each other in the middle and let go of this urge to be in the right.

Practising compassion and loving kindness for one another including and especially the other and seeking to understand various perspectives has helped me calm my sense of anxiety at humanity.

It's worth remembering that the Internet exaggerates and encourages conflict.

It's worth remembering that the Internet exaggerates and encourages conflict.
Good post, you're right.

FWIW I believe the problem is that everyone can see what some of the Opposition think of them, and it's a pretty disgusting sight. But most people who work at local level in politics are decent people.

My DH and many of his friends, actively support Labour. They just feel saddened at what has happened. And powerless. They're not interested in Identity Politics, or name calling, they just want to see a better world. I admire what they do, even if I can't support them.

Unfortunately the Internet allows us a window into the minds of the minority.

It's worth remembering that the Internet exaggerates and encourages conflict.

This is the best thing I've read on the Internet today. Something always worth having in mind.

[quote PermanentTemporary]@FifteenToes agree with you. The difficulty is that the political landscape appears to be morphing. Who is working class now? Who thinks of themselves as wc, and why - is it economic, political or cultural? Do other people agree? Do they need a political party for that part of themselves? What do they need or want politically? How many of them are there?

There's certainly a big youth vote who are as a class economically insecure and socially highly progressive. Theres nothing wrong with Labour serving that group. But there's nothing obvious about a coalition with different classes there. And even in that group there will be splits eg about internationalism/globalism.[/quote]
The problem with this is that politics is a zero sum game. So when people vote Tory (or just don't vote, letting a Tory in) because they hate Labour so much, they're not just saying that Labour's youth/socially progressive/middle class image is a problem for them. They're saying that it's MORE of a problem than the Tories' erosion of workers' rights and penchant for a zero hours gig economy, chronic underfunding of social care and public services, gradual undermining of democracy and, more recently, responsibility for one of the world's very worst responses to the Covid epidemic.

That's why I'm interested in what "identity politics" actually means, practically speaking. I get, and share, the aversion to TWAW and lack of protection for women's sex-based rights, but (a) this a relatively recent thing and (b) it's not all that clear that the Tories or anyone else are much better. In terms of Labour's historic support for other aspects of identity politics - the things dating from the 80s that the Mail and Sun take the piss out of it for - what about it is actually so harmful to working class people? Where did the working class get the idea that you can't work towards greater structural economic equality AND socio-cultural equality at the same time? Or that trying to do so is SOOO offensive that it's WORSE than a party that openly opposes any kind of equality and just shits on them without shame?

Isn't this just about class-based and cultural prejudice? The same thing (in reverse) that people are complaining about in middle class Labour?

@MaMaLa321

FWIW I believe the problem is that everyone can see what some of the Opposition think of them, and it's a pretty disgusting sight. But most people who work at local level in politics are decent people.

My DH and many of his friends, actively support Labour. They just feel saddened at what has happened. And powerless. They're not interested in Identity Politics, or name calling, they just want to see a better world. I admire what they do, even if I can't support them.

Aye, that's my experience too. I'm curious about this image I keep reading of woke-rabid Momentum extremists rampaging all over the country trying to force everybody to state their pronouns, as most of the people I see in the left of Labour are just reasonable people perfectly capable of discussing issues open-mindedly and willing to give up some of their free time to create a more decent society.

That's why I'm interested in what "identity politics" actually means, practically speaking. I get, and share, the aversion to TWAW and lack of protection for women's sex-based rights, but (a) this a relatively recent thing and (b) it's not all that clear that the Tories or anyone else are much better. In terms of Labour's historic support for other aspects of identity politics - the things dating from the 80s that the Mail and Sun take the piss out of it for - what about it is actually so harmful to working class people? Where did the working class get the idea that you can't work towards greater structural economic equality AND socio-cultural equality at the same time? Or that trying to do so is SOOO offensive that it's WORSE than a party that openly opposes any kind of equality and just shits on them without shame?

Personally for me the trans stuff sits apart from other issues that also get called identity politics. I can see why it gets mashed together and I can see why people object especially as the movements themselves have a tendency to conflate.

For example it appears you cannot support BLM (the org) without agreeing to trans ideology, ditto the climate change movement via Extinction Rebellion. It's an incredibly prescriptive set of ideas with the expectation you buy into wholesale or not at all. This deliberately encourages polarisation.

My fundamental problem with the Lab/Lib/Green/SNP party position on gender ideology is that it's a huge and egregious lie about one of the very basic tenets of human understanding. A mainstream party taking the position that biology isn't real/a woman is not an adult human female/people can change sex is at the level of them standing on a platform that gravity doesn't exist or the earth is flat.

We all know that the Tories lie and they aren't blameless in the gender fiasco but they haven't embraced the outright absurdity as a party political stance and then threatened/expelled heretics and non believers.

Johnson is a master of fibs and outright lies if he thinks he can slither out of a tight spot or it benefits him in some way, that isn't in in dispute. But to have actual politicians who are willing to state things on record like 'babies have no sex' makes the NHS Brexit bus lie look like small fry.

It's hard to put into words how proudly disturbing the denial of reality from the aforementioned parties is because if they are prepared to do something so Orwellian on this matter then what else would they be prepared to do or support? A lie on this level feels different to the sleazy lies one expects from career politicians.

This is why I supported the Labour Party for years right up until 2019 when I couldn't do it anymore.

My fundamental problem with the Lab/Lib/Green/SNP party position on gender ideology is that it's a huge and egregious lie about one of the very basic tenets of human understanding. A mainstream party taking the position that biology isn't real/a woman is not an adult human female/people can change sex is at the level of them standing on a platform that gravity doesn't exist or the earth is flat.
I agree, and this is not just the position of 'rabid Momentum types' but one openly supported by party leader candidates.

Yet Andy Burnham won with what the BBC called a "landslide victory" www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-57037359

I don't know whether he's ever said anything about sex and gender, but he certainly stood up for Manchester during their tier whatever it was, and he was also great campaigning for those of us excluded from Govt support through Covid, so a Labour politician can be popular.

mobile.twitter.com/MayorofGM/status/1227637382083698689

Burnham is TWAW, supports GRA reform and apologised for having a meeting with LGB alliance

If you don't respect my sex, don't expect my X.
Women are leaving labour because labour left women.

Burnham is TWAW, supports GRA reform and apologised for having a meeting with LGB alliance

That's disappointing but he's still bucked the general voting trend against Labour.

Thanks for the link to the Janice Turner article. It read well.

That's disappointing but he's still bucked the general voting trend against Labour.

In Manchester (and Liverpool) you could put a red rosette on a donkey and it would get elected. It doesn't tell us anything about appeal to the rest of the country.

@ShastaBeast

Corbyn’s 2017 non election win “win” was credited to appealing to young people on social media. Trans activists and general woke identity politics is driven by social media. Labour needs to stop listening to social media. It doesn’t reflect real life and real people’s concerns.

This labour loss has made me see the links between anti semitism and misogyny and the BLM, TRAs and Wokism. This is all part of corbynism in the Labour Party - he may not have held these views but he allowed them to flourish.

I don’t get, psychologically how “anti-hate” campaigners are linked to hate of women and Jewish people. How do they square that circle?

I think the anti-hate stuff is all about power in the end, and it's driven by these identity issues. All of that is beneficial to corporatist power structures.

On the other hand, they benefit more from seeing sex as an identity, that is, as a gender.

it's been pointed out but sometimes it's not emphasised, that maybe one of the reasons that gay rights became so emphasised by corporate and political entities was because it looks progressive, but really isn't difficult for them. There are no real special accommodations for special physical needs, and demographically it skews university educated, no kids, above average incomes.

Women are a problem to accommodate but it's better for capital for them to e in paid employment.

I am not sure about anti-Semitism, but I'm not convinced it's part of the same problem. Or it may be partly, but I also think a lot of traditional leftists have ideological problems with Zionism and other similar political ideas, and that tends to be seen now as inherently anti-Semitic.