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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Wipeout for Labour in Hartlepool

406 replies

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 07/05/2021 07:36

Given the landslide in Hartlepool, will anything make Labour think again about the way in which they've alienated their core voters (including women)?

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SmokedDuck · 08/05/2021 19:39

That's why I'm interested in what "identity politics" actually means, practically speaking. I get, and share, the aversion to TWAW and lack of protection for women's sex-based rights, but (a) this a relatively recent thing and (b) it's not all that clear that the Tories or anyone else are much better. In terms of Labour's historic support for other aspects of identity politics - the things dating from the 80s that the Mail and Sun take the piss out of it for - what about it is actually so harmful to working class people? Where did the working class get the idea that you can't work towards greater structural economic equality AND socio-cultural equality at the same time? Or that trying to do so is SOOO offensive that it's WORSE than a party that openly opposes any kind of equality and just shits on them without shame?

Identity politics is about dividing up society in terms of different self-identified groups, most often based on categories that are highly socially constructed, somehow rating them hierarchically and seeing the job of politics as being oriented towards serving justice to these kinds of groups. Socially constructed groups means it tends to favour groups based on things like race, gender, and (ever increasing) sexuality categories.

That's not at all of course to say that we don't have things like discrimination based on race. But an interesting change in emphasis can be seen over the years as identity politics approaches have come to dominate - instead of saying, we need a world where being of African or Polish descent is seen as being immaterial other than as an interesting fact about your family, or where your sexual orientation is not worthy of comment and gay people are seen as being just like everyone else, to an approach that almost seems at time to be the opposite of that, reinforcing the distinction of the categories in a way that is almost essentialist.

It's not so much about the exploding of the hierarchy, but the-reordering of it. Except with sex - we have to disappear that because it's not something re-orderable.

As far as whether it is possible to do this "as well as", no, it isn't. For a lot of regular people this is not an ideological statement, it's just what they've observed. Their basic position is stagnant or getting worse while their political representatives seem to spend a lot of time talking about rainbow lanyards and taking down statues. Maybe they would believe they could do both if they saw both happening.

But the identity hierarchy is not really compatible with class based justice or universalist principles. A lot of this came out on the thread about intersectionalism - a hierarchy based on essentialism around race and gender can never really deal with class which will in many cases contradict the supposed hierarchy.

This is why globalists and corporations love identity politics. Adolph Reed once alluded to it as the lapdog of neoliberalism - it allows them to work for "social justice" but protects an economic arrangement that is systematically advantageous for those at the top, of wherever identity group.

Dervel · 08/05/2021 19:43

I think the anti-semitism is explainable by one simple fact: more Jewish people vote Tory and more Muslims vote Labour. Therefore when it comes to approaching the Israel/Palestine question it’s all a matter of appealing to a voting base.

I don’t for a second truly believe the Labour Party are endemically more anti-Semitic than the Conservative party, but like with a lot of things they find themselves over a barrel ideologically.

I recall when Corbyn failed to formalise the definition of what constitutes anti-semitism over the clause you have to agree with Israel or you are guilty. It would be a little bit like someone of accusing me of racism against the Chinese for believing they should get out of Tibet.

Tealightsandd · 08/05/2021 19:53

more Jewish people vote Tory
They do now. Corbyn made sure of that. Previously, loads of them leaned to the left.

Tealightsandd · 08/05/2021 19:56

And on the other side, Sajid Javid has a Muslim heritage. And is a Conservative MP.

Labour really needs to lose the obsession with divisive identity politics. It's a big part of the problem. People don't want it. They want positive constructive policies instead.

PronounssheRa · 08/05/2021 19:59

Labour's deputy Angela Rayner has been sacked from her roles as party chair and campaign coordinator following poor results in the English local elections.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57037839

SunsetBeetch · 08/05/2021 20:08

[quote PronounssheRa]Labour's deputy Angela Rayner has been sacked from her roles as party chair and campaign coordinator following poor results in the English local elections.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57037839[/quote]
Well, it's a start.

PronounssheRa · 08/05/2021 20:17

Well, it's a start

Also, LOJ is very upset, so that's a bonus

SmokedDuck · 08/05/2021 20:18

@Dervel

I think the anti-semitism is explainable by one simple fact: more Jewish people vote Tory and more Muslims vote Labour. Therefore when it comes to approaching the Israel/Palestine question it’s all a matter of appealing to a voting base.

I don’t for a second truly believe the Labour Party are endemically more anti-Semitic than the Conservative party, but like with a lot of things they find themselves over a barrel ideologically.

I recall when Corbyn failed to formalise the definition of what constitutes anti-semitism over the clause you have to agree with Israel or you are guilty. It would be a little bit like someone of accusing me of racism against the Chinese for believing they should get out of Tibet.

If there is a big divide in voting it would make sense that it might influence policy tendencies.

I'll tell you though, I've seen some things recently close to what you describe with China, which surprised me. That is, people saying that we should not criticise the Chinese government too much because it justifies anti-Asian violence in western communities. I hadn't really thought of it as similar to the way people think about criticism of Israel, but it might have some overlaps.

borntobequiet · 08/05/2021 20:23

@SmokedDuck’s post at 19:39 very enlightening, thanks.

SunsetBeetch · 08/05/2021 20:24

@PronounssheRa

Well, it's a start

Also, LOJ is very upset, so that's a bonus

I'll drink to that Wine
VELVETCLOUD · 08/05/2021 20:36

It is time for quiet, serene reflection

We cannot ignore the presence of the 'Pandemic Factor' in the politics not only of the United Kingdom but of nations around the world and where a government - and in particular its leader - is believed to have performed well that can produce an electoral reward and the polls in Britain on 06 May 2021 may have proved the point

It could be argued that Coronavirus has placed the politics of the United Kingdom in a form of cryostasis and the general opinion is that Boris Johnson has done largely a good job in difficult circumstances and people are not motivated to vote against the Conservative Party

Inverting the normal mode of politics, the Pandemic has forced the Conservative Party to adopt measures it would not have considered implementing at the time of its General Election victory of 2019 and it has been necessary for Sir Keir Starmer to support the government and Labour and its leader failed to define a distinctive approach

Believing that there is a malaise being experienced amongst the range of liberal colours of the political spectrum is not entirely accurate but there are questions of relevance and identity and also in a very novel sense of appeal and adherence

Referring to the victory of Joe Biden to become the President of the United States as he led the Democratic Party to a temporary political dominance controlling the Executive and Legislative branches of government there were different sets of coalitions supporting his candidacy and that of the incumbent Donald Trump and the Republicans are acting wherever possible to alter systems in their favour in electoral contests in future years

It was not difficult to understand the nature of liberal politics around the world - it believed in acting in a collectivist, internationalist and universalist manner to defend equality, justice and democracy and the dignity of people

We have witnessed during the period of the past forty years the evolution of society around the world and established certainties were not any longer set as firm as they had been in historic terms when communities were based on similarities of occupation and income and behaviour and consequent shared beliefs that formed an ethos and on a local or national basis it enabled Parties to hold a monopoly of power and thus in the context of the United Kingdom it was possible for Labour to use its base in industrial urban areas in Scotland, Wales and the North of England to be able also to form governments

It was the disintegration of much of the structure of organisation of society that enabled a range of pagan particularisms to become more prominent and thus national, racial, ethnic, religious, caste or clan association replaced any sense of common effort

It revealed a division in many nations that was going inevitably to arise as increased prosperity, time for leisure and desire for self-advancement combined with the greater availability of education - the emergence of an intellectual hierarchy which required then that people who could not belong to such a group would resort to concepts such as patriotism or piety to demonstrate that they were members of society and should be valued

It has become a matter of the reality of ideas of equality and dignity and a sense of power

Is a young woman in Hartlepool who reads only Magazines featuring celebrity gossip and cannot qualify for a place to train as a beautician the equal of a middle-aged female scientist who came to Britain from Portugal or Finland or Slovenia in 2005 and whose research at the University of Oxford was instrumental in enabling the creation of the Astra-Zeneca vaccine?

India is suffering a human tragedy and experiencing simultaneously a political catastrophe because so many of its people could not give a majority in Parliament to an incumbent Prime Minister of impeccable personal credentials - a graduate of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge at Ph.D. level in the 1960s - but preferred a religious nationalist with whom so much of the population identified but managing the Covid-19 Pandemic has proved beyond the capabilities of a former railway-station tea-seller whose academic qualifications may have come from noble institutions but it would be enlightening to know the details of the awarding process

Brazil is suffering a human tragedy and experiencing a political catastrophe because so many of its people believed that they should support an individual who articulated and endorsed their prejudices and challenged an urban intellectual elite which held globalist opinions that were suspiciously 'anti-patriotic' to such as an extent that he praised the person who had tortured a woman of dignity and courage who had resisted military rule and become the first female leader of her nation

It is interesting that people are aroused to action - some of it not to be regarded as appropriate - if patronage by a multi-millionaire distorts Association Football but not if the ceiling of a bedroom in 11 Downing Street resembles now the Sistine Chapel

Scotland and Wales have distinct histories, traditions and cultures which ought to be recognised and allowed to flourish but is the notion of independent nationhood viable in either case?

Scotland was an independent nation 500 years ago and then the world did not come to Edinburgh and so it shall not in future years and on how many occasions on motorways in England are we in a queue behind an articulated lorry festooned with telephone numbers relating to a base in the Republic of Ireland?

It is a curious fact of life that after a Century of independence a major entrepot for exports of goods from the Republic of Ireland is not Cork or Galway or Dublin but it remains Dover and it necessitated specific negotiations regarding arrangements for continued trade following the departure of the United Kingdom from the European Union

It is the case that many of the residents of Hartlepool are the people who did not possess the acumen or aptitude or qualities to leave the town and it shall probably transpire that the 'Northern Powerhouse' will prove to be as enormous a 'white elephant' as HS2

It is necessary for the liberal tendency in politics to recall that it is based on principles of equality, democracy and justice and it should be proud of its collectivist, internationalist and universalist attitudes which will ensure and enshrine the dignity of people whereas that cannot happen if governance is entrusted to our current 'ideological' opponent which we have to identify by its name

SunsetBeetch · 08/05/2021 20:41

Ahahahaha! LOJ has actually accused Keir Starmer of scapegoating the working classes, and throwing women under the bus !

That's cheered me right up Grin

twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1391088591149928451?s=20

Wipeout for Labour in Hartlepool
Wipeout for Labour in Hartlepool
PronounssheRa · 08/05/2021 20:46

Twitter is hilarious 'but Angela has a Northern accent, how can we connect with people in the red wall if we demote people with northern accents'

FFS, do they really think it's accents that are the problem.

I see LOJ is predicting Nandy is also going to be demoted which is interesting

Tealightsandd · 08/05/2021 20:47

Keir comes from a far more working class background than LOJ.

SunsetBeetch · 08/05/2021 20:50

Is a young woman in Hartlepool who reads only Magazines featuring celebrity gossip and cannot qualify for a place to train as a beautician the equal of a middle-aged female scientist who came to Britain from Portugal or Finland or Slovenia in 2005 and whose research at the University of Oxford was instrumental in enabling the creation of the Astra-Zeneca vaccine?

It is the case that many of the residents of Hartlepool are the people who did not possess the acumen or aptitude or qualities to leave the town and it shall probably transpire that the 'Northern Powerhouse' will prove to be as enormous a 'white elephant' as HS2

What disgusting, ill-informed snobbery. If this is what you're offering after Labour's crashkng defeat, it's going to be a "No, thanks" from me and many others.

Mollyollydolly · 08/05/2021 20:56

Political commentators on Raynor .. Why has he sacked her she's northern and working class??!! The level of debate and understanding of what's going on is pathetic.
Do some of these people never leave their posh bit of London? Do they really think we'll vote for someone just for their accent? It's all so stupidly superficial.
Can't commiserate with Angela - blocked me for asking her what a woman was. Oh well. Shame.

SunsetBeetch · 08/05/2021 21:00

Identity Politics in action, innit?

Tealightsandd · 08/05/2021 21:03

@Mollyollydolly

Political commentators on Raynor .. Why has he sacked her she's northern and working class??!! The level of debate and understanding of what's going on is pathetic. Do some of these people never leave their posh bit of London? Do they really think we'll vote for someone just for their accent? It's all so stupidly superficial. Can't commiserate with Angela - blocked me for asking her what a woman was. Oh well. Shame.
The people pushing this seem to be as many from the north as from "posh bits of London". Andy Burnham, professional Northerner, is a huge fan of that patronising approach. Angela herself is another.
PermanentTemporary · 08/05/2021 21:05

Velvetcloud, is that you or are you posting an article?

Tealightsandd · 08/05/2021 21:07

A focus on division, identity politics, and the superficial, like accents and regional background serves a useful purpose. It hides the lack of any kind of decent policy. People need good policies, not favoured accents.

FifteenToes · 08/05/2021 22:12

As far as whether it is possible to do this "as well as", no, it isn't. For a lot of regular people this is not an ideological statement, it's just what they've observed. Their basic position is stagnant or getting worse while their political representatives seem to spend a lot of time talking about rainbow lanyards and taking down statues. Maybe they would believe they could do both if they saw both happening.

This appears to make some sense, until you remember that Labour haven't actually been in POWER for the last 11 years, and thus haven't been in a position to do anything about anything.

Yet for some reason they seem to be responsible for pretty much every iniquity that the Tories have visited upon the working class. Oh well.

SmokedDuck · 08/05/2021 22:17

@FifteenToes

As far as whether it is possible to do this "as well as", no, it isn't. For a lot of regular people this is not an ideological statement, it's just what they've observed. Their basic position is stagnant or getting worse while their political representatives seem to spend a lot of time talking about rainbow lanyards and taking down statues. Maybe they would believe they could do both if they saw both happening.

This appears to make some sense, until you remember that Labour haven't actually been in POWER for the last 11 years, and thus haven't been in a position to do anything about anything.

Yet for some reason they seem to be responsible for pretty much every iniquity that the Tories have visited upon the working class. Oh well.

Generally MPs aren't expected to just sit home and eat bon bons because their party hasn't happened to form the government.
HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 08/05/2021 22:50

If Rayner and Nandy are going it must be more to do with policy/personality clashes than anything else. I'm intrigued to know more. Any "Blairite coup" propaganda is patent nonsense when the man hasn't been in power for over a decade, and let's face it - whatever you think of what happened during his tenure - there aren't any politicians in the party right now with his talent for communication, creating clarity and a sense of purpose around policy, and building popular support behind a positive, aspirational message. Rayner and Nandy stand out from a mediocre crop of talent, but they aren't the saviours of Labour. As far as I'm concerned both of them have embraced batshit identity nonsense wholeheartedly - with Nandy even agreeing males with penises should be incarcerated in the female estate - so I won't be weeping over their departures. Both of them have betrayed their sex to a greater or lesser extent and in so doing encouraged the toxic discourse around women's rights.

Tanith · 08/05/2021 22:54

"What I remember about the latter is that the media, and probably the LP too, desperately tried to dig up any dirt they could find on him, they didn't find any. He was just some average family man bloke who was supporting his national team in an international football tournament. Sneered at by a shadow cabinet minister for no reason at all."

What I remember about that tweet is that Emily Thornberry posted a photo of a house with a white van and a couple of England flags, with the caption "Image from Rochester".
That was all.

It was David Cameron that claimed she was sneering, it was blown up by the media, the man himself accused her of snobbishness and Emily apologised and resigned.

Emily Thornberry grew up on a council estate herself. My mother in law taught at the local school and remembers her and her family. She isn't a snob and she wasn't sneering.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 08/05/2021 23:08

Emily Thornberry did later apologise for the tweet and for the lack of context. She said on the Andrew Marr programme that it had allowed others to attribute meaning to her words that wasn't intended. Let's be clear though - she chose to post a photo of a white van and English flag in a Kent town where the Tories were fighting off a challenge from UKIP. This was the run up to Brexit and it did nothing to help the remain cause. If it wasn't intended to be sneering it was foolish and misguided, given the atmosphere in the country.