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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Wipeout for Labour in Hartlepool

406 replies

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 07/05/2021 07:36

Given the landslide in Hartlepool, will anything make Labour think again about the way in which they've alienated their core voters (including women)?

OP posts:
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SunsetBeetch · 11/05/2021 18:20

I thought this was insightful from The Telegraph

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/10/hand-wringing-angela-rayner-exactly-problem-labour-must-move/amp/

Freespeecher · 11/05/2021 21:54

Floisme
Do you remember the number of people who took a pen into the voting booth to ensure that their vote couldn't be erased (as they obviously feared their vote being literally taken away from them).

TheHandmadeTail · 12/05/2021 10:51

Tony Blair attacks woke left -

www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair-attacks-woke-left-labour-cease-exist-b934635.html

ChakaDakotaRegina · 12/05/2021 11:03

[quote TheHandmadeTail]Tony Blair attacks woke left -

www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair-attacks-woke-left-labour-cease-exist-b934635.html[/quote]
“A progressive party seeking power which looks askance at the likes of Trevor Phillips, Sara Khan or JK Rowling is not going to win”.

Tony is reading the room at least!

Tealightsandd · 12/05/2021 14:33

He's right - but it's a bit rich coming from him. It's the legacy of his government that led to the Labour Party going in that direction. And, the seeds of woke were sown under his watch.

Tealightsandd · 12/05/2021 14:36

Blair is right - but it's a bit rich coming from him... The current direction of the Labour Party is a consequence of his government. The development of 'woke' is one of his legacies. He sowed the seeds.

Tealightsandd · 12/05/2021 14:43

He's right - but it's a bit rich coming from him. It's the legacy of his government that led to the Labour Party going in that direction. And, the seeds of woke were sown under his watch.

VELVETCLOUD · 12/05/2021 18:17

Taking into account points that have been made by fellow Mumsnet correspondents in Messages posted to this thread

It is the human experience of politics - in particular in an open multi-Party democracy - that people are separated into the categories of being Manipulators, Zealots or Followers and if that appears ludicrous then deny that you have met examples of each of the three types during your long and glorious lives

Britain granted a degree of tolerance to the activities of Trades Unions in the 1860s and waged employees joined industrial organisations in order to improve their pay and industrial conditions but then it was decided that their case would be advanced by representation in Parliament and that led to a relationship with the Labour Party

It was fallacious to believe that being termed as 'working-class' caused any individual to become automatically a supporter of the Labour Party

It may have become a tradition in some areas of northern England not to vote for the Conservative Party but that did not prevent its electoral successes during the 20th and into the 21st Centuries

It was possible for the Conservative Party to be triumphant because it defended the status quo - it would not disrupt life but manage competently the capitalist economy and maintain the culture, heritage and beliefs of the people of Britain which it claimed to share and so it could satisfy the three basic human motivations of money, power and sex

It may have been the case that membership of the Trades Unions inspired a certain allegiance to the Labour Party on the part of sections of the "working-classes" but the notion that they were necessarily philosophical Socialists was an error of belief and an illusion

Forming an attachment that was not entirely symbiotic, the industrial organisations and the political Party remained distinct - it would be difficult to envisage of eight 'proletarian' leaders of the Trades Unions of the 1960s possessing First-Class Degrees from the University of Oxford to compare with the children of the 'petite bourgeoisie' who were members of the Cabinet in the Labour government of the day

It was a idle comparison made in 2010 between David and Ed Miliband and the former comedy duo the late Mike and Bernie Winters

David Miliband resembled obviously the Mike Winters character - handsome, urbane, talented, aloof and not having any choice Ed was Bernie as he was irreverent, engaging, energetic and intuitive

David Miliband was comfortable with power and perhaps his hopes of becoming Prime Minister dissipated because of the two occasions on which he was expected to resign as Foreign Secretary but failed so to do and to challenge Gordon Brown for the leadership of the Labour Party

Ed Miliband had the substantial character required to challenge his elder brother for the leadership of the Labour Party to the annoyance of many of its members and of his own family and in some instances perhaps forgiveness may not have been entirely forthcoming

Ed Miliband led the Labour Party to electoral defeat in 2015 with a deficit of 99 seats against the Conservatives

David Miliband may have proved to be a distant, remote and somewhat bland personality in terms of the impression he made on people during a General Election campaign and with his leadership perhaps the Labour Party would have won only 99 seats in the House of Commons

Ed Miliband was advised poorly by his team of office juniors at the General Election of 2015 - they failed to understand that rising waves of nationalism in Scotland and England were pulling the two countries in opposite directions but he could have restored order to the situation by making the point that he needed to win 326 of the 500 constituencies in the southern part of Britain to form a majority Labour government

Ed Miliband may not have a base of support within the Labour Party these days or any avowed ambition for power but it ought to be noteworthy that on the two occasions he should have been given the position that his stature and ability merit - Treasury Spokesman or in effect Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer - Sir Keir Starmer has refused to make that appointment

Boris Johnson and the Conservatives appear entrenched in power and there is not the prospect of a change of government for some years

It would be difficult to conceive of the Liberal Democrats as a Party of government but thy were in Coalition with the Conservatives as late as 2015

It happened that over the course of many years Labour supporters would lend their votes to the Liberal Democrats if that Party appeared more radical and progressive on certain issues but leadership crises and a loss of political identity caused a significant change that did not seem to register with the electorate

Nick Clegg and the 'Orange Book' generation were more moderate than their predecessors and willing to take Liberal Democrats into a Coalition with the Conservatives when the situation required with the consequent loss of the support of radicals and progressives

It does not matter if the Labour Party cannot command any longer the affection and loyalty of some of its traditional supporters - it is more a question of practicalities and judgments

Boris Johnson was criticised by his scientific advisors for the removal of restrictions on movement by the people of Britain in June and July 2020 when the Coronavirus pandemic was not entirely subdued and for opposing the imposition of new regulations when the number of deaths was increasing and if he is proven to have made also callous remarks about the situation then his position could become untenable and life may be difficult for a Cabinet that did not challenge his authority

It will become evident in future years whether medical and scientific judgments were subordinated to political expediency and that could be a factor in deciding the course of a future General Election but these shall be matters at the time for the people of the United Kingdom

Floisme · 13/05/2021 08:50

@Freespeecher

Floisme Do you remember the number of people who took a pen into the voting booth to ensure that their vote couldn't be erased (as they obviously feared their vote being literally taken away from them).
Sorry Freespeecher I've only just seen this. Do you mean in the Brexit referendum? No I don't know the answer but I can absolutely believe it happening. What was the turnout - 72%? That's phenomenal. I'm really not a fan of referendums but it's hard to argue against that.
SunsetBeetch · 13/05/2021 08:54

Interesting chat here.

Geoff Norcott: "If people are so easily duped, why can't you dupe them?"

Findwen · 13/05/2021 12:55

Today a Labour front bencher does her bit to win back women:

===================================================

A Labour shadow minister has resigned her post after claims she tried to interfere in a sexual harassment case.

Kate Hollern has been accused of trying to "scare" away Tory MP Andrew Bridgen from helping the complainant.

Former Labour MP Mike Hill denies allegations of sexually harassing and bullying a female parliamentary worker.

At a tribunal into the case, Mr Bridgen said Ms Hollern told him there were rumours he was having an affair with the woman.

He claimed she added: "If I were you I would keep away from her, because you have a wife and baby and you would not want to lose them if it got in the papers."

===================================================

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57086574

Clearly the nasty right winger supporting the female victim must be attacked. Such a nasty party - vote Labour !

Tanith · 13/05/2021 13:09

You deliberately missed out Kate Hollern’s statement:
Ms Hollern put out a statement on Wednesday in response to the allegations made at the tribunal.
She said: "I am absolutely clear that any complaint of sexual harassment should be treated extremely seriously and had this been raised with me I would have taken the necessary action.
"It was never my intention to undermine the support the complainant was receiving, which I was unaware of at the time.
"If that is what Mr Bridgen was led to believe, I apologise for my error in judgement in having the conversation."

Findwen · 13/05/2021 13:19

Be realistic if this is true:

"It was never my intention to undermine the support the complainant was receiving, which I was unaware of at the time."

Then why would she approach him to warn him off ? Was her not very subtle blackmail attempt purely to save his marriage since she is claiming she knew nothing about the sexual harassment claim. Doesn't really seem likely does it ?

Tanith · 13/05/2021 13:34

One interpretation is that she saw Andrew Bridgen as a possible threat to the woman and tried to warn him off.
Another is that she thought he may have been having an affair and tried to warn him of the consequences if the media got hold of it.

When Andrew Bridgen made the statement to the court that clarified his position, she apologised and resigned.

Do you think she shouldn’t have resigned?
I know the Conservative way is to disappear for a few weeks, then pretend nothing happened, but apologising and resigning is actually quite an honourable thing to do, don’t you agree?

ThursdayWeld · 13/05/2021 13:38

It was never my intention to undermine the support the complainant was receiving, which I was unaware of at the time.
"If that is what Mr Bridgen was led to believe, I apologise for my error in judgement in having the conversation."

That makes no sense.

Findwen · 13/05/2021 13:41

Those are interpretations - shame the one she came up with seems too improbable. If she thought he was a threat to her somehow (reasons imagined out of whole cloth), then approaching him and threatening blackmail is poor response.

If she worried about his marriage, again straight to blackmail is a poor response.

Maybe she should have asked him about the rumour before restoring to blackmail and threats if she truly had noble motives.

I think she should resign for attempted blackmail - yes.

ThursdayWeld · 13/05/2021 13:45

Exactly @Findwen. And since when has a Left MP cared so much about the wellbeing of one of the most right-wing Tories there is?!

andyoldlabour · 13/05/2021 13:56

The way I understood this was that a male Labour MP was sexually harassing a woman and a male Tory MP was trying to help the woman. The female Labour MP then tried to warn off the Tory MP to protect the male Labour MP.

ThursdayWeld · 13/05/2021 13:57

@andyoldlabour

The way I understood this was that a male Labour MP was sexually harassing a woman and a male Tory MP was trying to help the woman. The female Labour MP then tried to warn off the Tory MP to protect the male Labour MP.
Yup!
SunsetBeetch · 13/05/2021 15:10

@andyoldlabour

The way I understood this was that a male Labour MP was sexually harassing a woman and a male Tory MP was trying to help the woman. The female Labour MP then tried to warn off the Tory MP to protect the male Labour MP.
Yup. Absolutely disgraceful . Tribalism at its worst.
SmokedDuck · 13/05/2021 15:46

Yes, but I don't understand the explanation she gave of the incident? Not that I think it was good or bad - I actually don't understand what it is supposed to mean.

Blair is right I think in his assessment, but he absolutely did start in several ways to undermine the meaning of "Labour" in LP, both in the sense of bringing in liberalism and bringing in identity politics. It's very interesting to see the conversation he has with Trevor Phillips in the film Phillips made about his time in government with Blair.

That being said, it's not to say he doesn't see the way it's developed for what it is, I would guess many of us looking back to what we thought then would not have predicted the results.

I think it would be a bad idea to get rid of Starmer though, if for no other reason than who would replace him? But I think the underlying problems would be faced by anyone who took over, they need, as Blair says, a total rebuilding. I think from the constituency level up.

VELVETCLOUD · 13/05/2021 17:27

We ought to be careful about commenting because the resignation of Kate Hollern M.P. has come in the middle of the hearing of this case and we do not want to prejudice matters

It would be interesting to consider some minor alterations to the chronology of events

Andrew Bridgen M.P. is rumoured to be involved in a sexual relationship with an anonymous female worker in Parliament who has made previously certain allegations against Mike Hill M.P. which are denied

Kate Hollern has a conversation with Andrew Bridgen and advises him to end the affair

Kate Hollern has resigned because it appears that she sought to prevent Andrew Bridgen from assisting the anonymous female worker with her case

Kate Hollern appears to have claimed that she did not know that Andrew Bridgen was assisting the anonymous female worker with her case

It was the case in days of yore that the relationships between Members of Parliament were not determined by the colour of the rosettes they wore at the time of an Election - there were opportunities and reasons to set aside differences and behave like an adult and be companionable

Kate Hollern may be telling the truth in saying that she did not know that Andrew Bridgen was assisting the anonymous female worker

Why?

It would have been more useful to Mike Hill if Kate Hollern had not held a conversation with Andrew Bridgen of the type that appears to have been reported

It would have a material impact on the allegations being made against Mike Hill if there were rumours of a sexual liaison between the anonymous female worker and Andrew Bridgen

It would have a material impact on the life and career of Andrew Bridgen if there were rumours of a sexual liaison between him and an anonymous female worker who had made allegations against another M.P.

Providing information to Andrew Bridgen regarding the rumours would have enabled him to end an affair that was actually being conducted

Assuming that Andrew Bridgen and the anonymous female worker did not know of the rumours regarding their friendship, it would have been possible for the team defending Mike Hill to investigate and perhaps the parties involved in any particular situation could have captured in flagrante delicto

It is merely speculation of course but the permutations of the rumours regarding Andrew Bridgen and the anonymous female worker will be known to everyone involved in the case

borntobequiet · 13/05/2021 17:38

What was the turnout - 72%? That's phenomenal

Only in recent times. From 1922 - 97 turnout was consistently above 70%, in fourteen elections it was above 72%.

ThursdayWeld · 13/05/2021 19:11

@VELVETCLOUD

We ought to be careful about commenting because the resignation of Kate Hollern M.P. has come in the middle of the hearing of this case and we do not want to prejudice matters

It would be interesting to consider some minor alterations to the chronology of events

Andrew Bridgen M.P. is rumoured to be involved in a sexual relationship with an anonymous female worker in Parliament who has made previously certain allegations against Mike Hill M.P. which are denied

Kate Hollern has a conversation with Andrew Bridgen and advises him to end the affair

Kate Hollern has resigned because it appears that she sought to prevent Andrew Bridgen from assisting the anonymous female worker with her case

Kate Hollern appears to have claimed that she did not know that Andrew Bridgen was assisting the anonymous female worker with her case

It was the case in days of yore that the relationships between Members of Parliament were not determined by the colour of the rosettes they wore at the time of an Election - there were opportunities and reasons to set aside differences and behave like an adult and be companionable

Kate Hollern may be telling the truth in saying that she did not know that Andrew Bridgen was assisting the anonymous female worker

Why?

It would have been more useful to Mike Hill if Kate Hollern had not held a conversation with Andrew Bridgen of the type that appears to have been reported

It would have a material impact on the allegations being made against Mike Hill if there were rumours of a sexual liaison between the anonymous female worker and Andrew Bridgen

It would have a material impact on the life and career of Andrew Bridgen if there were rumours of a sexual liaison between him and an anonymous female worker who had made allegations against another M.P.

Providing information to Andrew Bridgen regarding the rumours would have enabled him to end an affair that was actually being conducted

Assuming that Andrew Bridgen and the anonymous female worker did not know of the rumours regarding their friendship, it would have been possible for the team defending Mike Hill to investigate and perhaps the parties involved in any particular situation could have captured in flagrante delicto

It is merely speculation of course but the permutations of the rumours regarding Andrew Bridgen and the anonymous female worker will be known to everyone involved in the case

That's you being "careful about commenting", is it?! Grin
ThursdayWeld · 13/05/2021 19:18

It would have a material impact on the allegations being made against Mike Hill if there were rumours of a sexual liaison between the anonymous female worker and Andrew Bridgen

Nice bit of victim blaming there Hmm @VELVETCLOUD

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