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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Wipeout for Labour in Hartlepool

406 replies

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 07/05/2021 07:36

Given the landslide in Hartlepool, will anything make Labour think again about the way in which they've alienated their core voters (including women)?

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DeRigueurMortis · 07/05/2021 17:01

@cocoapopfan

Some great posts on this thread. Hope somebody in the Labour Party is reading them.

There's been a lot of discussion on Mumsnet on how to vote when it seems any vote is just enabling parties who are ignoring women's rights. But maybe the thing to do is to join a party (any party) and then contact the GC/women's rights group within it (I think they all have them). Then you can find out and vote for candidates who are GC locally and nationally, even if you don't want to get actively involved.

Locally, a few people can make a big difference.

The problem with this is that whilst the LP's attitude towards women stinks and has impacted some women to leave the party/remove their vote it's not the crux of the party's woes.

Of course to many on this forum it's a make or break issue wrt where you put your cross on the ballot paper but in the context of the wider voting public it's not a deal breaker.

The concern LP policy on Self ID creates is simply yet another, but lesser reason not to vote for them.

The big issue was, and remains Brexit and its aftermath.

The LP massively misunderstood the voting intentions of vast swathes of its northern voters in the initial campaign and then post referendum continued to "remain" (pun intended) tone deaf to these voters by repeatedly trying to block the leave process.

I'm doing so they effectively said "you were wrong and we know better than you".

Voters didn't like that and stuck two fingers up by voting Tory, a party that had also taken the wind out of Labours sails with its "levelling up the north" campaign.

Does it matter that they might not deliver on this? Well in context at least they are talking about it...what did the last Labour Govt do to address the North/South divide?

These voters made the switch and guess what - the world didn't end. They gave Labour a bloody nose and they liked doing it because most people can't stand being patronised and "educated".

As per previous post I made below, the Conservatives are incredibly pragmatic about policy. It's not a matter of values or the past, it's about what wins votes right now.

Labour by contrast are mired in history, values and dubious ethics rather than policy that's relevant to addressing voter concerns.

Starmer going big on Tory sleeze and the LP wondering why it didn't resonate....

Fact is most people don't care (even if they perhaps should) about who paid for fancy interior decor.

Negative campaigning very rarely works because it indicates you have no policies that resonate with the electorate of your own - and right now Labour have very few of those plus a recent legacy of betraying long standing voters by trying to stop Brexit.

It a mess and frankly I can't see a way through it whilst the membership retains its very left wing majority and the power it's able to exert over the Parliamentary Labour Party.

fishareboring · 07/05/2021 17:06

They keep saying this, 'listen to voters'.

The thing is you can do politics two ways.

You can have a genuine, democratic desire to represent the views of ordinary people in the street, speak for those people and look for outcomes compatible with these on the key issues of the day. In which case you're going to be representing a large proportion of the electorate and their desire to see you in power.

Or you can have passionate, niche views not relevant to the lives and views and experiences of ordinary people in the street, and want your chosen outcomes. In which case you have to accept you're not going to garner much of a vote.

Labour are a party of the second kind now, but confused by having once been a party of the first kind, and an inherited expectation of just getting heavy voting blocks without having to do anything more than exist. If the electorate don't want you in power they're telling you something. Moaning at them for voting wrong..... you've lost all contact with the concept of 'democracy'.

SunsetBeetch · 07/05/2021 17:11

Yes, Keir. But what are you going to do about it?

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/london-mayor-local-uk-elections-2021-latest-news-results-b933718.html?utm_source=upday&utm_medium=referral

I'm way past this point now (I'mmore frustratedand annoyed at Labour), but I really feel for former Labour voters who are feeling so upset that they couldn't vote for them any more. I've seen people saying they have been in tears over it. Doesn't sound like the emotions of a bigot to me.

Abhannmor · 07/05/2021 17:17

@PronounssheRa

I would love to think Labour’s unpopularity is caused by people waking up to the party’s misogyny. But it seems to be more than that

I think there are a lot of things at play. Hartlepool voted for brexit so Labour parachuted in a remain supporting candidate. They just don't reflect the people whose votes they want.

But Brexit is over , finit , history. Will people vote Tory in some Groundhog Day perpetuity? Like soccer fans reliving 1966 forever. There must be a more sensible reason...please Confused
HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 07/05/2021 17:23

But Brexit is over , finit , history. Will people vote Tory in some Groundhog Day perpetuity? Like soccer fans reliving 1966 forever. There must be a more sensible reason...please

The point is (and I know this is will horrify some people) but to win elections you have to tell voter that better time await and that's why Blair was so successful at elections/ "Things can only get better" was his theme tune. Whatever you think of his legacy - the perpetual truth is that no one wants to buy into a defeatist narrative, or one that paints them as villains. The only way forward now is - Brexit has happened- how do we make the best of things, how do we rediscover our collective mojo, we're great etc That's how you'd get your team to work well and galvanise around a mission at work.

cocoapopfan · 07/05/2021 17:25

@DeRigueurMortis I agree with a lot of that. I think the problems go deep. All I am saying is that for those who do want to make a difference, and especially on women's rights, then they will have more impact joining a party even with minimal involvement.

On women's rights, there are groups within all the parties working hard. I do think a lot of people are waking up to the fact that actually this is not the new gay rights movement.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 07/05/2021 17:27

Certain sections of the progressive left/centre wanging on about how great the EU is, how shit the UK is, and how everyone needs to get back on track with the programme, when it's plain to see that isn't the case, isn't going to help anyone.

AfternoonToffee · 07/05/2021 17:45

an inherited expectation of just getting heavy voting blocks without having to do anything more than exist.

Honestly it is this, the population feels /felt very much let down by the labour MP's and the perception that they seem to do very little. There is a lot of anger today on local FB that the remaining labour MP's in the area no nothing, offer nothing and are never anywhere to be seen.

Sophoclesthefox · 07/05/2021 17:47

Great posts, hecates

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 07/05/2021 17:56

Thanks Sophocles, I'm just so fed up of being stuck on repeat. Paging the next big thing and hoping they have the ability to thing critically.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 07/05/2021 17:56

Think! Not thing.

CrazyNeighbour · 07/05/2021 18:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DeRigueurMortis · 07/05/2021 18:04

But Brexit is over , finit , history. Will people vote Tory in some Groundhog Day perpetuity? Like soccer fans reliving 1966 forever. There must be a more sensible reason...please

What sensible reason is the LP giving people right now to "come back"?

To repeat, people didn't abandon Labour they feel the Party abandoned them.

It's not about reliving a "slight", it's about voters having a tangible reason to believe the party has changed.

When I joined the LP many years ago my CLP was a "safe space" for robust but good natured discussion. All viewpoints were welcome at the table and given considerate thought. Members might disagree on certain issues but had a collective empathy with broader aims.

It was a place that tolerated the then hard left "outliers" like Corbyn who were allowed a voice and were respected for their stance on various issues.

Ironically that same level of respect has gone since JC became leader. There's no tolerance or space for discussion.

When I and a number of other long standing members left what do you think the reaction was?

A review of why? A discussion to try and change our minds? An offer to find compromise/common ground?

No, the fuckers threw a party to celebrate "freeing" the CLP from the "bigots" and "blairites" Hmm (and they call the Tory's the "nasty party").

So no, I'm not in a hurry to "come back" until I see some very tangible changes rather than the LP itself living it's own "groundhog day" of making the same mistakes again and again.

NiceGerbil · 07/05/2021 18:41

Not read it all but will. Problems as I see it.

Momentum- back to the militant left etc. In fighting. Parties that seem not united or on the same page aren't appealing.
Appalling inaction over antisemitism.
Booting out long serving activists because they know men can't be women. Not knowing what a woman is.
Useless over brexit, not taking s stand because of internal and personal differences of opinion
Starmer no charisma
Corbyn not fit to lead (I suspect he's good at local level but a lot of people got their hopes up then he was useless)

Probably more

The don't like the people they expect to vote for them rang true for me.

PronounssheRa · 07/05/2021 18:55

Khalid Mahmood has resigned from the Labour front bench saying that 'A London-based bourgeoisie, with the support of brigades of woke social media warriors, has effectively captured the party'

twitter.com/JGForsyth/status/1390711677457403910

PronounssheRa · 07/05/2021 18:56

twitter.com/JGForsyth/status/1390711677457403910

SunsetBeetch · 07/05/2021 19:04

Anna Soubry seems to get it. Surprised that The Independent allowed such a nuanced article, tbh.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-hartlepool-keir-starmer-jeremy-corbyn-brexit-b1843980.html?amp=&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=upday

SunsetBeetch · 07/05/2021 19:06

[quote PronounssheRa]Khalid Mahmood has resigned from the Labour front bench saying that 'A London-based bourgeoisie, with the support of brigades of woke social media warriors, has effectively captured the party'

twitter.com/JGForsyth/status/1390711677457403910[/quote]
Good on him. That can't have been easy.

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 07/05/2021 19:25

No, the fuckers threw a party to celebrate "freeing" the CLP from the "bigots" and "blairites" hmm (and they call the Tory's the "nasty party").
A LibDem friend of mine said to me many, many years ago that there were some truly unpleasant people in the Labour Party. The whole Corbyn fiasco just proved her right.

Sadly I think that there truly unpleasant people in every political party. I don't trust any of them at the moment, not a bloody inch.

DeRigueurMortis · 07/05/2021 19:41

[quote SunsetBeetch]Anna Soubry seems to get it. Surprised that The Independent allowed such a nuanced article, tbh.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-hartlepool-keir-starmer-jeremy-corbyn-brexit-b1843980.html?amp=&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=upday[/quote]

Best line from that article:

"In short, Labour doesn’t know whether it is Arthur or Martha."

Biscuitsanddoombar · 07/05/2021 20:08

The response from Labour activists on twitter to khalid Mahmoud resignation is confirming everything he’s saying

SunsetBeetch · 07/05/2021 20:12

@Biscuitsanddoombar

The response from Labour activists on twitter to khalid Mahmoud resignation is confirming everything he’s saying
Yes. It's depressing.
Freespeecher · 07/05/2021 20:45

If Tracy Brabin wins the mayorship she's running for then there'll need to be a by-election in Batley and Spen in a couple of months time. Think the current majority is similar to that of Hartlepool (3,500ish) so it'll be a chance to see if Labour will have learnt anything in the interim.

(Clue: they won't).

littlebillie · 07/05/2021 21:49

I've been the the political chats today pointing out that Labour doesn't bring forward women leaders or acknowledge the Oxford English Dictionary definition of women, especially in its recruitment of Women Officers. It's interesting that supporters are trying to shut down that conversation and accusing this who don't agree as thick or gammon Hmm.

I have voted all of the parties through out my life but this is the line now, ignoring the voices of women at their peril at the voting box.

littlebillie · 07/05/2021 21:51

@Babdoc

I’m a Tory, but I take no joy from Labour’s idiocy. We need a healthy strong opposition for politics to function properly and safely. A one party state benefits nobody but its politicians. Just look at Scotland.
Agree totally governance is better when there is a strong rational opposition