Trad wife do we judge?

[LastRoloIsMine]

I watched a Stacey Dooley documentary this evening on Trad wife's. It basically means they are "traditional women". They get married and they see their place in society as stay at home mums who cook clean and cater for the man in their life. The man rules and they follow.

One of the traditional wives who was recently married said "feminisim hurts men. I have a son and feminisim hurts him" it's wrong.
Then there was Lillian who says women are happier when men are happy. She also said she was happiest when she does laundry especially for her husband.
Apparently before her husband she had a good career but now she says his needs come before hers so she gave up work. She had given up her earning capacity and relies solely on her husband.
She now says feminisim is like cancer.
Feminisim is putting women first and that's wrong.

I honestly am so angry watching this.

The rock march pulled me up short. Sounded borderline abusive. I switched off shortly after.

No absolutely not @AssassinatedBeauty.
I think the only person that I know that I would describe as a trad wife is my own DM who is very religious, believes abortion is a terrible sin and used her ‘traditional family values’ as an excuse to stay with my father who was very abusive towards me. So as much as I don’t want to judge any trad wife, the experience that I had in my childhood with having one as a mother, actually turned me into a feminist. I had internalized a lot of misogyny due to my upbringing and as soon as I started educating myself on this, I got angry. Very very angry. With my parents, in particular. With my mother who perfectly primed me for the abusive relationship I had for nearly a decade. So I absolutely don’t agree with their rejection of feminism and the idea that women’s job is to serve men.

I Imagine it is easier for women who's husbands are higher earners, to take this stance

Absolutely, and also for those in relationships in which the male partner is equitable and reasonable and even appreciative by nature; or for those in new relationships, perhaps with a small child/children.

But long term being a "surrendered wife" is more to do with adhering to a rigid ideology, than in fulfilling one's 'natural role'.

I think that if men were deserving of this sort of treatment, it wouldn't be too much of an issue. But so many men would take advantage of this sort of arrangement and treat their wife like shit. Being the important one in the relationship could make them very entitled, entitled to other women or whatever else they might want. And what about the knock on affect on single woman, or non trad wives trying to build a career amongst these men, these men who are used to being top dog, and pandered to by the women in their lives.

I also don't think that feminism means supporting any choice a woman makes. I would also dispute that these choices are freely made - choices aren't made in a vacuum and we are all the products of our upbringing and environment.
It's important not to confuse tradwife with sahm - I'm the latter and there's no way on earth I am anything like the former. I agree that it's a fetish. I remember watching Holly and Phil interview a surrendered wife once and she said her husband decides when they have sex - gross as fuck and tbh I don't know why TV companies give airtime to other people's weird (abusive imo) lifestyle choices.

Several things stand out.
Husband is centered in everything - he is facilitated and enabled in every way. How long will it take before he starts to believe it's his right to be king in his own little kingdom.

Sons and daughters will witness this. How to make girls feel like second class citizens, and wrong for perhaps wanting a career and an equal partnership. Although the girls are being raised in such a way it will be outside their ken to expect to be equal.

It's definitely a rich person's sport - most of us don't get to spend our days being beautiful and embroidering things. She'd perhaps feel differently living in a 2 up 2 down with a husband on minimum wage.

What happens if the marriage goes wrong - not even one party cheating or being abusive, just if one of them (probably the husband) doesn't want to be married anymore? Does trad wife do the trad thing and go back to her parents trailing her children behind her?

I suppose a sensible woman, in the US, not here because I don't believe they're binding, would draw up an ironclad prenup if she's intending to be a 'tradwife', but possibly she would class a prenup as not in the spirit.

It just strikes me that so very many things could go wrong. I guess it depends on the individuals involved as to how successful their lives will be.

It's not the same as being a SAHM either, I'm guessing the SAHM on this thread do not put their husbands on a pedestal and pander to their every whim, not expect them to do at least some of the domestic stuff.

@Nodal

I support their right to live how they want but I judge those women's choices as foolish. They are not merely SAHP, the surrendered wife thing goes beyond that and is, imo, a fetish. As usual I feel sorry for the kids being dragged into adult fetishes.

I agree. It's bizarre and sinister.

Sons and daughters will witness this. How to make girls feel like second class citizens, and wrong for perhaps wanting a career and an equal partnership. Although the girls are being raised in such a way it will be outside their ken to expect to be equal.

^^
This is exactly what I was trying to describe when I wrote about my DM the tradwife and the influence it had on me.

@MrsTerryPratchett

I don't judge the women. The men who want this subservience, them I judge a lot.

I am afraid I do judge the women. They should expect and demand more from the man they marry or live with. I also judge them for the fact that choices and examples impact and affect their children, both male and female.

I'm in a tricky situation because I want to stay at home all day, but I also don't want to do the laundry :D where do we forgotten few fit into society?! The ones who want to watch netflix in our pjs until midday.

I don’t really understand what people mean when they say feminism is about choice

This is the understanding of feminism for a younger generation of women, for who equal civil rights and the normality of women in high public office or role is the norm.

There is a lack of deeper systemic thinking, having not so obviously been forced, through social approbation, to conform to quite rigid social and gendered roles.

It also arises from post modern society and its emphasis on the individual and on personal choice; hence we get prostitution re-labelled as 'sex work', and on transgender ideology and personal identities -where you can choose from many tens of possible genders, and so on.

Younger women of middle class backgrounds now expect to go to university and travel the world etc; and to not even think of having children until their 30's, or suggest that they don't want children at all.

Women for whom the realities of their sexed body has so far meant little - in terms of opportunity or lack of opportunity.

Interestingly, though, these same younger women all came out for Sarah Everard, sensing their own situation in hers - perhaps for the first, truly conscious time.

@StrangeLookingParasite

shouldn't we support other women choosing what makes them happy?

Happy people don't usually slap out at others all the time.
I also think it's toxically solipsistic, thinking that what's right for you is right for everyone.

I just had to look up 'solipstic' and I'm still not sure what it means 😂😂

social disapproval rather than approbation.......

Husband is centered in everything - he is facilitated and enabled in every way. How long will it take before he starts to believe it's his right to be king in his own little kingdom.

Sons and daughters will witness this. How to make girls feel like second class citizens, and wrong for perhaps wanting a career and an equal partnership. Although the girls are being raised in such a way it will be outside their ken to expect to be equal.

This is how I feel.
I respect a woman's right to choose what works best for her and her family but I feel very uncomfortable when it involves men being centred and it makes me uncomfortable and angry when women say feminism harms men.

Honestly I have mixed feelings about this. In a nutshell I think the trad wife role is detrimental to individual women but beneficial to society as a whole.

If there is one parent at home the kids have someone who’s always available to meet their needs and they receive more direct parenting from someone who gives a shit. Elderly parents have family support available. There’s someone around to look after sick family members. There’s more community and people know each other more. But it’s shit for individual women who don’t have careers or ambitions they can achieve.

Of course working women are more free and independent, more able to achieve. But as soon as women go out to work the house prices double simply because families can afford it. So there is then no option for one parent to stay at home if they need to look after kids or elderly relatives, because the cost of living is too high to manage on one salary. Life becomes a very hard juggling act for everyone. And there is more of a wealth gap because there are some families with two salaries and some families with none.

Most women try to walk the middle path by taking time off work when the kids are small or working reduced hours (thus affecting their long term career prospects and lifetime earnings and pensions even though society likes to pretend that doesn’t happen). We feel guilty when our mums are dying of cancer and we can’t look after them. We feel guilty when our kids need us and we have to send them to childcare and go to work. We feel stressed from trying to juggle everything. But the alternative to that is the loss of opportunity conferred by the trad wife role. So I really don’t know what the solution is. My only thought is that we should support families more from the public purse so parents could take time off when they need to and work the rest of the time.

I too have some mixed feelings. I haven't seen the doc but from what I've read on here, these women sound like the equivalent of Marie Antoinette playing at milkmaids. I have no time for it.

But as for what I regard as 'real' traditional wives, I think we underestimate them and their contribution at our peril.

Something that society has learnt over time is that traditional gender roles hurt men as well as women. Boxing people into a set of rigid expectations around behaviour, feelings and thoughts isn't good for either sex.

I'm a feminist and i know that it benefits my son as well as my daughter.

There's an entire Instagram/Tumblr/Facebook "community" (?) of trad wives. I've looked into the lifestyle myself. It's all lipstick dresses and housework and tea parties and loving your man.

I thought about it from a feminist point of view and was initially disdainful because the lifestyle seems to wipe out (or wife out haha) 2nd wave feminism completely. Then I had to check myself as it was a bit judgemental. If it works for you, it's not really hurting anyone.

My MAIN point however is having looked at all these trad wives posting trad wifey stuff on their social media, I don't think I've ever come across a single one who was bashing feminism or feminists. I think it must have been an editorial decision, these women were possibly asked leading questions, or even edited out of context.

We all know what happens behind the camera.

I'm imagining cynically that maybe one of the ladies said "I think feminism is great and I'm a feminist myself but I do know some people think feminism harms boys" and the editor has just cut out all of the first words of that and aired the last three words only.

For whatever reason they've taken a feminist bashing angle for the program with isn't actually normally part of the trad wife lifestyle.

But I didn't watch the program.

It's all lipstick dresses and housework and tea parties and loving your man
If your opportunities in the world of work basically consist of shitty min wage jobs then I can see why this is a more attractive option. The problem with equality is that women have to work whether they want to or not.

Male perspective... I think that being a stay at home parent is a valid choice. Home-making and bringing up the kid(s) as one's mains focus, instead of work, is an admirable aim. It is also a privilege enjoyed mainly by people who are privileged (rich, educated) enough that they were able to marry someone with enough privilege to get a very well paid job.

Raising wages and reducing housing costs so as to make stay at home parenting more realistic is a legitimate aim for society, and a legitimate feminist aim.

BUT, it stops there. Claiming that serving a man is the path to happiness or a better world. Disgusting. Implying that they are anything other than retrogressive. Disgusting. Implying that they are doing anything other than selfishly doing what they want to do. Disgusting.

Presenting housewife as an option - good, so long as you acknowledge the privilege needed. Presenting it as the best option - terrible, despicable.

Feminism is surely about empowering women to do what they want, which can be the role of housewife. BUT more than that it is about empowering women to look at the world as their oyster, to have dreams and ambitions that encompass everything from mountaineering to diving, slapstick comedy to PhD in philosophy.

@Moules

I'm in a tricky situation because I want to stay at home all day, but I also don't want to do the laundry :D where do we forgotten few fit into society?! The ones who want to watch netflix in our pjs until midday.

I solved that one @Moules. I went back to work 8 weeks after having my DD and my husband became the SAHP.

However, my work routine appears to be to lock myself in my home office, pretend I'm doing lots of important tasks, international client calls etc, whilst in reality spending most of the day on Mumsnet.

I'm intrigued as to where the viewpoint "feminism is like cancer" originates and spreads. I guess the US religious aspect is pertinent.

I guess for a lot of people the concept of feminism is synonymous with the cliche of man-hating rabid shrewishness. They never think of it in dull, prosaic everyday terms like being able to go to school, take a driving test, use their country's legal system, own property etc.

On a more flippant note, how women find men that can't/won't wash their own clothes and feed themselves attractive is a bewildering mystery. Reminds me of the Goodness Gracious Me sketch with the old Indian mothers arguing over whose spoilt mummy's boy son is the most physically helpless and pathetic.

Presenting housewife as an option - good, so long as you acknowledge the privilege needed
It is a very privileged option nowadays. Even just 30-40 years ago it was the normal women who stayed at home and the privileged educated women who worked. Now the normal women have to work because the cost of living demands two salaries, and only rich privileged women with wealthy partners can afford to stay at home.

I don't think equality should mean having to work - as a pp said, there is sometimes a need/preference for individual families to choose sah as an option. What equality should look like is for the sah person to be the man as often as it is the woman, looking after kids or sick parents and for the state to protect that family choice by valuing the contribution to the individual family and sometimes to wider society when it comes to division of assets and financial support post divorce.
As things stand, women get shafted on divorce, when they've supported a woh partner because society doesn't recognise the personal benefit a woh husband may have had or any contribution a sah spouse may have made to society, in looking after elderly/sick relatives etc.

MrsHunt you are right. Equality should be both sexes having the opportunity to work and also the opportunity to stay at home if needed. One of the saddest things about the modern era is that everyone has to work because the high cost of living demands that households have two incomes. As a society we should be offering more financial support for SAH and more support in returning to the workplace afterwards.