Trad wife do we judge?

[LastRoloIsMine]

I watched a Stacey Dooley documentary this evening on Trad wife's. It basically means they are "traditional women". They get married and they see their place in society as stay at home mums who cook clean and cater for the man in their life. The man rules and they follow.

One of the traditional wives who was recently married said "feminisim hurts men. I have a son and feminisim hurts him" it's wrong.
Then there was Lillian who says women are happier when men are happy. She also said she was happiest when she does laundry especially for her husband.
Apparently before her husband she had a good career but now she says his needs come before hers so she gave up work. She had given up her earning capacity and relies solely on her husband.
She now says feminisim is like cancer.
Feminisim is putting women first and that's wrong.

I honestly am so angry watching this.

@WeeBisom

Feminism surely has to mean more than supporting women in their choices, no matter what, because women can choose things which are fundamentally antithetical to feminist principles. If you accept that feminism is about freedom from male oppression, or that it has something to do with men and women being treated equally, to pursue a lifestyle where you insist that women are not equal to men and should not be equal to men is just not feminist. Even if they are very happy in their decision, this doesn't mean it's a feminist decision. And I think that's fine. I don't understand this drive to construe every lifestyle choice or belief as 'feminist'. Some women are feminists and some are not.

I have no problem in saying these choices, while freely made, are not feminist choices. To say that 'feminism is a cancer' and to think your husband comes first is profoundly anti feminist. I just hope it works out for them. Relying on another person for security is all well and good, but it can be risky.

Absolutely this.

As a feminist, I don’t have to support this lifestyle choice, because to me, feminism is about the liberation of women from exactly the set of expectations being glorified here. They explicitly reject my philosophy, so why should I adapt that philosophy to accommodate that rejection?

There’s always a conversation to be had in feminism about the role of domesticity and childcare- how they are valued, who does them- but being a surrendered wife isn’t moving that conversation forward in a productive manner at all.

This becomes less of an issue once people stop defining feminism as 'the right for women to do whatever they want'. Of course it's not feminist and no, I don't respect their choices either. They're kidding themselves as well. Lots of them will end up getting divorced for instance. So many middle-aged women get absolutely fucked through this process. Very often it's because their husbands have found another woman (usually one who is not a tradwife). Giving up your earning power is a huge step to take and lots of women don't realise that courts have moved away from huge settlements and spousal maintenance and they're not going to be 'protected' if the marriage breaks down. Being economically inactive for your entire adult life is also nothing to encourage or promote. And, of course, as someone else said above, it's a choice that has never been given to working class women, who have always had to graft.

I don’t really understand what people mean when they say feminism is about choice.

Not every choice I make as a feminist is a feminist choice. Why would it be? I’m soaked in the patriarchy. Feminists make shitty non-feminist choices every day.

You might find 'right wing women' by Andrea dworkin interesting. It should be online as pdf.
I suppose I don't judge them. Just analyse their choices from my political perspective.
Raewynn Connell's 'emphasised femininity' explains it too.

I didnt' watch the programme - too annoying - but I have lived in the US and it is more normal for women to be homemakers. So her choices wouldn't be commented on much. Apparently the woman also has a youtube following.
My beef is spending your life doing laundry etc and not using your brain.
She does have the youtube work so is probably kept pretty busy but to not work but to be proud of doing boring domestic chores without also writing a book, studying a language or whatever, is unconvincing to me of a happy life.

Feminism is putting women first and that's wrong.

She actually said that in so many words? Anti-feminists usually won’t say that directly and have to invent reasons to hate us, but that is the reason they hate us.

I didn’t see the program, but I judge the SHIT out of anyone who is teaching that message to little girls.

I think it's a load of bollocks because this version of being a 'traditional wife' has only ever been available to a minority of people. Women have always worked, that tradition.

I have issues with people who define themselves using buzzwords, like tradwife.

When women work for pay it doesn't (usually) just benefit themselves, it benefits the whole family. Everyone's standard of living rises, the husband is free from the crippling pressure of being a sole breadwinner and the children can move on from the apron without risking me losing my identity.

I'm actually quite traditional and conservative, but do not feel the need to aggressively refuse to contribute financially to the household just so I can live in a fantasy world.

@Disfordarkchocolate

I think it's a load of bollocks because this version of being a 'traditional wife' has only ever been available to a minority of people. Women have always worked, that tradition.

Yes, that's another point. This 'tradwife' nonsense is very rich, modern and Western in its approach.

I'd like a willing trad husband. Who wouldn't want a support human. Not an option open to most women sadly. If the option is do every thing at home and work full time or just do everything at home, or just work full time, retaining economic power whilst every need was looked after being looked after. I know which I think is the best bet. What if their charming overlords leave?

I am a SAHM and consider myself still a feminist. I think women should support each other in the choices they make and it’s quite upsetting to read that some think that I’m hurting others by making the choice to stay home (for now). I wouldn’t criticize others choice to work fulltime as I am not them so I can’t judge them and hope to get the same respect from others instead of being judged by those who don’t know anything about my life but see me automatically as a marionette of the patriarchy.

For me, it is the same as women in the porn industry.

They are ultimately products of an incidious patriarchal society which has subliminally told them their only value is as an accessory to a man’s life and pleasure.

I therefore can’t see this as a decision which has been made with free will because it’s come only after being forcefed and drip fed years and years of... misinformation? Propaganda?
Don’t know what you call it but it’s not dissimilar to people who join any other cult, surely?

I didn't watch the programme, so am commenting on the broader idea of traditional - from the love, honour, obey part of the wedding vow. This is the bit that gets trotted out - but the Bible does go on to say that whilst a wife should 'obey' the husband shouldn't ask for anything unreasonable, so in many ways it's a notional concept of obedience. Ie something that the husband should not test or behave in a way that would challenge it.
It's not carte blanche for one party to dictate to the other.

I can’t get on board with bringing up boys to believe feminism is wrong.

Telling them that equal pay, the right not to be sexually harassed, the right to maternity leave etc ‘hurts them’ is dispicable.

@Howyoudoingirl

I can't agree with feminism hurting men but shouldn't we support other women choosing what makes them happy?. I have a career I love but some of the happiest years in my life were when I was a stay at home mum. Taking care of the house, my kids and my husband made me very content.

Should we? Why?

I saw ads for this but didn’t watch as it would be too upsetting for me.

I do judge, but also pity. I also don’t feel guilty about judging, as they’re judging women who don’t want to live the way they do.

I have no problem with women who stay at home with the kids, but when they start saying that women have to put men first and that feminism is a cancer, that’s what I judge them for.

@RoseRedRoseBlue

Yes I judged. The little girl’s sad reaction when Stacey Dooley left said it all. Felipe came across as a prize tool as well - nor did he receive a ringing endorsement for his colleague at the wedding vow reception.

I totally agree. The little girl crying was awful, made me worry why she needed Stacey's protection

well I judge in terms of I immediately know they wont be my type of people, but they can do what they want privately in their own home.
Makes me feel sorry for their kids if thats pushed as what is right rather than whats right for them personally, but out of all the other abuses and dynamics that women live under, the ones who enjoy it arent a priority

I am a natal woman.
I choose to have relationships only with married men, ideally ones with children. Doing this makes me feel valid and happy.
Please can I be supported for my choices, as feminists should support women making choices which make them happy?

I am a woman and I'm bringing my children up to be racists, this makes me happy because I'm also racist. Should I be supported in this?

I am a woman and I run a website for an affair matching company which I founded. All the lovely money coming in makes me very happy. Would you feminists like to support my decision to do this?

I love wearing fur and as soon as kickdown is over I'm going on a spending spree on which ever countries I can to buy up as much fur as possible, it makes me so happy.

All legal choices, should they all be supported? We haven't even got onto illegal ones which aren't precluded by the definition of what feminists should do 'supporting women making choices which make them happy'

So now that presumably we can agree that some choices shouldn't be supported, a debate about which ones deserve support and which ones don't might naturally follow.

*none of these things are true about me and I would not support any woman making these decisions

Brilliant post @MapGirlExtraordinaire Truly 'Choice Feminism' is the worst kind of feminism, if it can be called that at all, the ideological equivalent of a girls trip to a shopping mall.

Lols. And all they need to do is wait until divorce hits and they have no income to support themselves. Very short sighted. Each to their own I guess....

I grew up in the 60s when a lot of women were, I guess, traditional wives. I dissed them at the time because I was young and dumb but I wouldn't do it now. Looking back, they brought a shit load of skills and cleverness to a marriage. They also enjoyed the company of other women. They would have made short work of Lillian.

@LaBellina

I am a SAHM and consider myself still a feminist. I think women should support each other in the choices they make and it’s quite upsetting to read that some think that I’m hurting others by making the choice to stay home (for now). I wouldn’t criticize others choice to work fulltime as I am not them so I can’t judge them and hope to get the same respect from others instead of being judged by those who don’t know anything about my life but see me automatically as a marionette of the patriarchy.

Presumably you're not a "trad wife", @LaBellina who believes that women are secondary to men, that men rule and women follow, and that feminism is a cancer that hurts men and boys? Because I think it is right for feminists and other generally decent human beings who wouldn't label themselves feminist to challenge those concepts and be open about not supporting them.

No feminist I know would criticize a woman for being a SAHM. They might criticize the social and cultural situation that makes that a more likely outcome for women than men. They might criticize the fact that many men still expect this as a default, they might criticize the idea of women as the default parent. They might also want to discuss the idea that being a long term SAHM is financially risky, unless you actively consider making national insurance payments, having a personal pension, housing security etc as recognition that you are enabling your partner's career. None of that is a personal judgement on any one individual's choices in their personal circumstances.

@MrsTerryPratchett

I don't judge the women. The men who want this subservience, them I judge a lot.

This, 100%