Trad wife do we judge?

[LastRoloIsMine]

I watched a Stacey Dooley documentary this evening on Trad wife's. It basically means they are "traditional women". They get married and they see their place in society as stay at home mums who cook clean and cater for the man in their life. The man rules and they follow.

One of the traditional wives who was recently married said "feminisim hurts men. I have a son and feminisim hurts him" it's wrong.
Then there was Lillian who says women are happier when men are happy. She also said she was happiest when she does laundry especially for her husband.
Apparently before her husband she had a good career but now she says his needs come before hers so she gave up work. She had given up her earning capacity and relies solely on her husband.
She now says feminisim is like cancer.
Feminisim is putting women first and that's wrong.

I honestly am so angry watching this.

[Furries]

I’ve not been on this board before. I came across the thread because I’d watched the programme and searched Dooley as I was surprised not to see a thread elsewhere.

I tend to like her programmes as she generally tackles fairly divisive situations. And she has the personality to make the subjects feel comfortable enough to be filmed, not overtly judging them, but leaving us to make our own views. It isn’t easy to do this, bearing in mind the wide range of topics she has covered - and she seems to achieve that every time,

For me, the biggest shock was the comment along the lines of (and paraphrasing here) “in matters of the flesh, it’s our duty - neither of us can deny it if the other requires it”. That, to me, is the standout and most abhorrent takeaway from the programme.

Followed by the fact that the mum had all of her opportunities and qualifications and then chose this life. And that’s her prerogative. But it equally means that her children won’t have that freedom of thought - which doesn’t sit right with me.

[LilithEveMary]

@EarthSight

She also has a bunch of businesses on the side, so she's not just doing laundry

*@LilithEveMary* If that's true she's self-employed then. Hardly the trad wife traditional set-up most of us have in mind.....but hold on....she's self-employed and she does all of the housework and childcare? How many hours a week is she doing self-employed work for I wonder? If she's doing the equivalent of a full time job AND doing all the housework and childcare.....well....sounds like they have quite a modern, dysfunctional relationship where she's been taken for an absolute ride, doesn't it? Women working and still doing the majority of the housework and childcare.

I don't know how active she is right now, but the businesses certainly were things like photography, child birth education, and music, all things are easy to do around children. I don't think it's about the income but probably more about being entrepreneurial and using her talents. I don't think that's unusual for women who homeschool and have those particular views. I guess they would say that it's not about being stuck at home, but about making the home the centre of what they do. I would be very surprised if anyone was making Lilian do what Lilian did not want to do, put it that way.

I have no idea how much Felipe does with the children on a day to day basis, but he did not strike me as an uninvolved father.

[EarthSight]

She also has a bunch of businesses on the side, so she's not just doing laundry

@LilithEveMary If that's true she's self-employed then. Hardly the trad wife traditional set-up most of us have in mind.....but hold on....she's self-employed and she does all of the housework and childcare? How many hours a week is she doing self-employed work for I wonder? If she's doing the equivalent of a full time job AND doing all the housework and childcare.....well....sounds like they have quite a modern, dysfunctional relationship where she's been taken for an absolute ride, doesn't it? Women working and still doing the majority of the housework and childcare.

[thelegohooverer]

The idea that it was somehow right and normal for married women to be legally denied the right to work stay home and raise families was manufactured after WW2 to tackle the problem of the influx of demobilised and traumatised men. Gangs of unemployed men who have been trained to kill is a massive social problem. And as usual women were thrown under the bus.

I don’t understand how or why it has come to have such a grip on the public imagination, when there are numerous historical examples of all but the very wealthiest women working.

I also really resent the term “trad” because it’s such a twisted version of how that type of lifestyle worked, when it worked. My gf had immense respect for my gm, and for her wisdom and authority in family matters. The measure of a good husband was a man who brought home an unbroken pay packet. It was common for wives to manage family finances, and I know a few men of that generation who espoused a “happy wife, happy life” philosophy. But both my gps were staunch advocates for women’s rights; I often wonder what their lives might have been like if they had lived in more equitable times.

There’s something chillingly sociopathic about women in lipstick and pretty dresses who are so determinedly blind to the abuse and injustice that others suffer. It goes beyond “I’m alright Jack”.

For clarity, I’m a sahm, and I will wholeheartedly argue for respect for what I do. It would be so easy to look at my life and choices and mistake me for a trad wife. Imo that’s part of what’s dangerous about it.

[Rupertbeartrousers]

Interesting point smoked duck... makes me think of the wife of noble character in proverbs (if Old Testament bible is their thing) buying fields and making cloth.

[SmokedDuck]

@Pota2

Also can someone really claim to be a tradwife when they run several businesses? Because surely a true tradwife would just be at home, not cashing in on social media followers. Women like Lillian are hypocrites when they tell women to give up their earning potential because they clearly don’t do that themselves. Also, I bet things aren’t as happy as they make out. The ones who shout the loudest about what others need to do are rarely truly contented.

I don't know that this should be a problem. But the fact that it seems like it might be kind of points to the artificiality of the concept.

It's only relativly recently that most wives at home didn't directly contribute economically. This only happened because the domestic realm became completely cut off from the monetary realm. If you go only a little further back many women at home also ran small businesses and contributed with gardens, chickens, making clothing, and so on. In rural areas they might run the farm to a large extent while men earned cash money.

[AlexCabot]

@Soontobe60

Let’s see how they feel if their husbands decide they want a divorce. If a woman has decided to be subservient to a man then that’s her choice, personally I think it’s bonkers. However, the stand out issue in this programme was the way they treated their children. Their daughter was made to carry a backpack with a ‘heavy’ load in it as a punishment if she misbehaved. This supposedly represents the heavy cross Jesus had to carry. Am I the only one who thinks this is child abuse? That child looked miserable. I wonder why?

Probably because she was hugely usurped when the long awaited son appeared.

I wonder if the video of his birth is still floating around the internet, it's quite something.

[Rupertbeartrousers]

Soontobe60 I take your point. I found the early series of our yorkshire farm interesting but more recently, newspaper articles featuring Amanda being critical of how others raise their children etc, crosses the line from “fly on the wall” in their life to telling others how to live theirs. There is a real distinction between the two and that is why I find the concept of “influencers” jarring.

Having a large extended family of farmers and knowing the downsides that come with it (from unsurvivable economics, suicide and near misses with agricultural accidents involving free range children) I think anyone promoting a certain lifestyle need to tread carefully and be real about the privilege of their position which may not exist for those who seek to emulate them. Not so much with farming but definitely other lifestyles such as “trad wife”.

But sorry for the digression.

[Soontobe60]

@Rupertbeartrousers

Good point above about online “influencers” promoting a lifestyle/viewpoint to others which they profit heavily from because of their media income. I think a similar point was made about Amanda the Yorkshire farmer - scrambler bikes and outdoor clothing for 9 children is much easier to afford with media money coming in. Not the reality for normal tenant farmers.

I think you’re being a bit unfair on Amanda and her family. The children wear hand me down clothes, not brand new items. Their sons find second hand items and fix them up, sell them on and then upgrade. Their eldest child is training to be a doctor. The ethos of this family is fantastic and should be applauded. So what if they also make money via media? It’s not like the cast of Made in Chelsea who are only famous because they’re already rich.
The farming family are precisely that. They have been one well known because of the life they live, not vice versa.

[Soontobe60]

Let’s see how they feel if their husbands decide they want a divorce. If a woman has decided to be subservient to a man then that’s her choice, personally I think it’s bonkers. However, the stand out issue in this programme was the way they treated their children. Their daughter was made to carry a backpack with a ‘heavy’ load in it as a punishment if she misbehaved. This supposedly represents the heavy cross Jesus had to carry. Am I the only one who thinks this is child abuse? That child looked miserable. I wonder why?

[Beowulfa]

Another point that's just come to me (as my washing machine whirs away in the background) is that by "traditional" they mean being a housewife within the last 50 years or so, after the invention of labour saving devices, supermarkets and online ordering.

I'm assuming they don't want to do laundry the "traditional" way and have to walk to a well/pump and carry buckets back, then light a fire, manage vessels of dangerously hot water, manually scrub with harsh soap, crank the mangle and hope it doesn't rain again when hanging sopping sheets out. Traditional my arse.

[Rupertbeartrousers]

Good point above about online “influencers” promoting a lifestyle/viewpoint to others which they profit heavily from because of their media income. I think a similar point was made about Amanda the Yorkshire farmer - scrambler bikes and outdoor clothing for 9 children is much easier to afford with media money coming in. Not the reality for normal tenant farmers.

[Pota2]

Also can someone really claim to be a tradwife when they run several businesses? Because surely a true tradwife would just be at home, not cashing in on social media followers. Women like Lillian are hypocrites when they tell women to give up their earning potential because they clearly don’t do that themselves. Also, I bet things aren’t as happy as they make out. The ones who shout the loudest about what others need to do are rarely truly contented.

[Roystonv]

Very disappointed to learn that the programme featured a couple who make a living from promoting this type of lifestyle. Poor choice and misleading and that is before you take into account they are religious and American which distorted their story even more.

[Quincie]

I don't know if this is everywhere in the US but in Calif school buses pick up the DCs for school. This is staggered because they won't have enough school buses for every child. So say youngest goes 8-1, next goes 8.30 to 2.30, next 9 to 4 or whatever - I've no idea how the working mums manage this.

[coodawoodashooda]

I thought I was one of them. Until my husband started treating me like dirt.

[Rupertbeartrousers]

Hrtft and it may have been said already... but I see this as nostalgia based on a perception of times that did not actually exist for the women of the day (were the old days really better when you take the rose tint off?) and a lifestyle “choice” built on the hard work of feminists in the past, campaigning for rights for women to vote, own property, stay in education, contraceptive rights, illegality of rape and DV in marriage, social support for single parents etc etc. Is this the same mentality which leads western Muslim converts to become ISIS brides and live in extreme female oppression?

[paralysedbyinertia]

Lillian says that women who earn more money than men are essentially to blame when their men fuck off with someone else they can earn more than.

I wouldn't be interested in holding on to a man who couldn't deal with my success, in any case.

DH and I earned roughly the same when we first moved in together, but I quickly overtook him, not least thanks to his encouragement and belief in me. I have earned considerably more than him ever since. Thankfully his ego is not so fragile as to be threatened by this!

[SmokedDuck]

@VienneseWhirligig

I've just watched the documentary. What struck me were two things - Lillian says that women who earn more money than men are essentially to blame when their men fuck off with someone else they can earn more than. And that her marriage would have been happier at the start if she was less rebellious. So essentially the man wants someone to dominate completely. Fuck that.

My DH never complained when I earned more than him. He celebrated my achievements and loved that I would express my opinion on anything and everything. He wasn't a prick though.

I think most men don't think that way at all.

What's interesting though is that overall, women don't tend to marry men whose earning potentially is a lot less than their own. Of course things happen and situations change once you are married, but overall it looks like women drive the tendency to see marriages where the partners both earn in the same bracket or the men earn more.

[LilithEveMary]

@AlexCabot

I've crossed paths with Lillian and Felipe many times on a personal level.

He is hugely (almost pathologically) homophobic and has issues with women.

Lillian is a very accomplished musician and very intelligent woman and I really don't think she's anywhere near as subjugated as she would first appear.

Almost as if the 'trad wife' bullshit is just a way to get their faces on tv.....

I also know Lillian and Felipe a little, so I'll be interested to watch this when I get round to it. I disagree with them on a whole bunch of things (such as Trump and vaccinations), not just where they have taken the idea of a SAHM.

I agree that she is a very intelligent and talented woman, and I think she is investing a lot of brainpower and creative energy into this particular lifestyle. She's a pretty strong personality, and I suspect she is driving a lot of this. She also has a bunch of businesses on the side, so she's not just doing laundry.

They've not made a secret of the fact that they are trying to monetise this lifestyle (which is not to say they are not sincere), and I get the impression they are doing pretty well at it. This documentary is only going to help them by raising their profile, I would imagine.

[VienneseWhirligig]

I've just watched the documentary. What struck me were two things - Lillian says that women who earn more money than men are essentially to blame when their men fuck off with someone else they can earn more than. And that her marriage would have been happier at the start if she was less rebellious. So essentially the man wants someone to dominate completely. Fuck that.

My DH never complained when I earned more than him. He celebrated my achievements and loved that I would express my opinion on anything and everything. He wasn't a prick though.

[Pota2]

@MildredPuppy

Pota2 - but feminist should be arguing for good divorce settlements that value 'womens work' and access to pensions including state pensions etc as well as saying to younger women to work. Women who are older now didnt necessarily have access to the same things like shared parental leave or even much good childcare.

Yes I agree but actually, as women have become more financially independent, housework and childcare has been valued less and less. It used to be the case that women would usually get maintenance on divorce but now they are often expected to fend for themselves despite having much lower earning power than their husbands.

I think all people need a balance between paid work and looking after the home and family. It’s not fair for one person to do all of one thing. That will obviously need some shift in what employers expect too.

[MildredPuppy]

Pota2 - but feminist should be arguing for good divorce settlements that value 'womens work' and access to pensions including state pensions etc as well as saying to younger women to work. Women who are older now didnt necessarily have access to the same things like shared parental leave or even much good childcare.

[Pota2]

@GCmiddle

Wouldn't surprise me if the 'trad wifes' get traded in for younger models when their ghastly husbands tire of them ...they might regret not working outside the home and having their own money at that point.

Yes... and usually for women who have a career as they ‘have more in common’ with them. A very risky move to put all your faith in someone to look after you when the law doesn’t require him to do so at all. And especially when the man in question is a raging misogynist like Felipe. I think the tradwife thing is yet another way for men to dominate women and sadly some women fall for it and think they are doing the right thing and that it makes them special. By the time they realise the truth it’s too late.

I know so many of my mums friends who are really struggling financially now as pensioners. Some really grim stories. These are all women who gave up their careers to care for their families while the men made the money. Then the men fucked off, usually with a younger woman.

[GCmiddle]

Wouldn't surprise me if the 'trad wifes' get traded in for younger models when their ghastly husbands tire of them ...they might regret not working outside the home and having their own money at that point.