TW: Laila Mickelwait: [children pay] a devastating price for an unchecked Big Porn sex crime industry.

[EmbarrassingAdmissions]

TikTok took down this young woman's first video in which she shared screenshots of her father's searches.

Teen discovered her father googling “real” “homemade” “teen” “rape” videos & “father daughter” incest abuse videos on the world’s largest porn tube sites.

The kids of this generation are paying a devastating price for an unchecked Big Porn sex crime industry.

twitter.com/LailaMickelwait/status/1389217984753946627

In various ways, this has been cropping up, recently. Some of us must be in relationships with, work with/alongside/for/supervise people who search for this material and actively exploit trafficked people.

What is it like for children to discover that a parent or other close relative does this? How do we expect children to engage with a society in which such people live among us? How do we expect VAWG to be addressed as the public health problem it is when social media is set up to facilitate this industry?

[Helmetbymidnight]

Where did I call you a liar?

Where? Show it.

Alternatively, stop whining about being misrepresented and fuck off.

[JediGnot]

@BigGreen

I don't think incest porn should be legal. But if criminalising it isn't agreeable, making it difficult to access would be a good start. At the very least it should be locked behind a paid password protected site that requires age authorisation. That would be some layer of protection for the 10 year old on the Internet mentioned by PPs.

What do you mean by "I don't think incest porn should be legal"? Think it through.

Do you mean that you don't think it should be legal for blood relatives to make porn together? If so then relax, I'm pretty sure incest is illegal even if you are filming it.

If it isn't real incest then it must be a story, it must be two people playing characters and telling a story, with that story labelled "incest". I think it's disgusting, but how is it different from a novel which features an incest storyline? Would you make "pretending to be relatives for the purposes of making a porn film" a crime? Would putting "incest" int he title be a crime even if the porn film made no refence to father / daughter?

[NiceGerbil]

The idea of gay sex disgusts you? What on earth is the point of you writing that. Keep it to yourself.

And saying it's the same as watching film purporting to be (and that might actually be) a father raping his unconscious daughter is appalling.

What's the matter with you?

[JediGnot]

@Helmetbymidnight

Where did I call you a liar?

Where? Show it.

Alternatively, stop whining about being misrepresented and fuck off.

"I totally believe that you think wanking over films of passed out teens/father daughter incest is a perfectly fine way to spend an afternoon."

You are telling me that you think that I watch incest rape when I have specifically stated that I don't. YOU ARE CALLING ME A LIAR.

And you are deliberately trying to provoke me.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

@JediGnot could you step back and reflect for a second here? You are posting many times in quick succession, long posts that repeat the same thing. You are making this thread about you and what you have or haven't said. This is Feminist Chat, in the Feminist section of a predominantly women's website. Do you think it is helpful to this discussion to de-rail and dominate the discussion in this way?

[JediGnot]

@NiceGerbil

The idea of gay sex disgusts you? What on earth is the point of you writing that. Keep it to yourself.

And saying it's the same as watching film purporting to be (and that might actually be) a father raping his unconscious daughter is appalling.

What's the matter with you?

FFS please read what I said.

The entire point - as I have already explained - is that gay sex disgusts me (as in I have zero desire to engage in it or watch it) just like watching people pretending to be father and daughter fucking disgusts me (as in I have no desire to act out that think that to some people might be a "fantasy" or watch it). But both things (gay sex and acting roles duiring consensual sex) are acceptable so long as they are between consenting adults.

Videos of men raping unconcious women are disgusting and illegal, incest or otherwise.

[JediGnot]

[quote AssassinatedBeauty]@JediGnot could you step back and reflect for a second here? You are posting many times in quick succession, long posts that repeat the same thing. You are making this thread about you and what you have or haven't said. This is Feminist Chat, in the Feminist section of a predominantly women's website. Do you think it is helpful to this discussion to de-rail and dominate the discussion in this way?[/quote]
No I don't think it is helpful, and I will do my best to post no more, but if people continue to ask me questions or misrepresent me then I will continue to post.

[picklemewalnuts]

The difference between a novel with an incest storyline and Porn is pretty clear, imo. Porn is about desire fulfillment, wishful thinking etc.- it is, in a perverse way, aspirational. It intends to make its theme desirable and erotic- effectively it attempts to train people up to find it arousing.

A novel with an incest storyline is quite different. It would explore the problems, complexities, issues of such relationship. It would probably seek to explore why the relationship had come to pass, and whether it was coercive. It would be nuanced- or else a crap read.

[NiceGerbil]

People have imaginations, Jedi.

If a man wants to get off on the idea of a man raping his daughter, or a young woman being raped by her brothers, then he is perfectly free to imagine that in his head while he knocks one out.

You not seeing that providing material for this market, which will be seen by lots of people adults and children who had no idea that this was a 'sexy' thing, is your lookout.

The fact that you never know what you're watching is also a massive problem.

'porn' featuring women passed out in very ordinary looking homes used to be readily available on one of the main sites.
It is a fact that site did not take down film of a girl being raped even after they were aware.
They only did anything when threatened with action from credit card companies.
Around the world, rapes are uploaded to porn sites all the time.

EG
'A troubling trend of rape videos going viral in India has led many to believe that smartphones and easy access to violent porn, coupled with a lack of sex education, could fuel sexual violence. The BBC's Divya Arya reports.

Earlier this year, a video showing a group of teenage boys trying to rip the clothes off a young woman was shared extensively on WhatsApp in India.

In it, she is urging them to stop, using the term "bhaiyya" (Hindi for brother) but they are jeering, laughing, clearly enjoying themselves.'

You prioritise the 'right' to view content depicting illegal acts over the fact of what the content can be, and the viewer has no way of knowing if they are watching acting or an assault.

There is no right to watch what appears to be an unconscious teen being gang raped. For example.

I find your arguments unconvincing and your statement about your disgust at the idea of gay sex off topic and crass.

[JediGnot]

And just to be clear before someone misrepresents me again. Gay people are not disgusting. Gay sex is not disgusting. Obviously. What is disgusting to ME is the idea of ME having gay sex that I don't want, or watching gay porn I don't want to watch, just like I don;t want to watch illegal porn, or legal porn that pretends to be things that I find disgusting, like violent sex or incest "fantasies"

[JediGnot]

@NiceGerbil

People have imaginations, Jedi.

If a man wants to get off on the idea of a man raping his daughter, or a young woman being raped by her brothers, then he is perfectly free to imagine that in his head while he knocks one out.

You not seeing that providing material for this market, which will be seen by lots of people adults and children who had no idea that this was a 'sexy' thing, is your lookout.

The fact that you never know what you're watching is also a massive problem.

'porn' featuring women passed out in very ordinary looking homes used to be readily available on one of the main sites.
It is a fact that site did not take down film of a girl being raped even after they were aware.
They only did anything when threatened with action from credit card companies.
Around the world, rapes are uploaded to porn sites all the time.

EG
'A troubling trend of rape videos going viral in India has led many to believe that smartphones and easy access to violent porn, coupled with a lack of sex education, could fuel sexual violence. The BBC's Divya Arya reports.

Earlier this year, a video showing a group of teenage boys trying to rip the clothes off a young woman was shared extensively on WhatsApp in India.

In it, she is urging them to stop, using the term "bhaiyya" (Hindi for brother) but they are jeering, laughing, clearly enjoying themselves.'

You prioritise the 'right' to view content depicting illegal acts over the fact of what the content can be, and the viewer has no way of knowing if they are watching acting or an assault.

There is no right to watch what appears to be an unconscious teen being gang raped. For example.

I find your arguments unconvincing and your statement about your disgust at the idea of gay sex off topic and crass.

I agree with pretty much all of that.

My issue is that I don't believe that googling “real” “homemade” “teen” “rape” videos & “father daughter” incest abuse videos on the world’s largest porn tube sites in itself proves anything other than that the person concerned likes porn, and some of it is relatively extreme porn of the sort I have no interest in.

If the evidence is out there that there is a correlation between googling rape porn and becoming a sex offender then perhaps we should be policing people's searches more than we do now.

If we have a problem with young people accessing porn, and accessing extreme porn, then that will need addressing. We don't ban alcohol because some people are alcoholics and some kids get hold of it when they shouldn't.

[Helmetbymidnight]

You are telling me that you think that I watch incest rape when I have specifically stated that I don't.

No I didn't, you twat. You have repeatedly defended men who wank over films of passed out teens/father daughter incest - as long as its legal - I didn't once say that I think YOU personally watch incest rape.

YOU ARE CALLING ME A LIAR.

NO I'M NOT. I have no idea about your freakin porn-habits. I don't want to fucking know.

Weird how offended you are getting by it though - because aren't we supposed to think the guys who do watch that shit, aren't bad guys, ("as long as they stay within the law").

[NiceGerbil]

I note also that you would like the age of consent lowered to 14 with some rules which seem a bit odd.

The UK would not prosecute eg a 16yo and a 14 yo having consensual sex as it's not seen as being in the public interest. You would criminalise this and presumably want it enforced otherwise what's the point of changing the law.

Your example of it being legal for a 70 year old man and a 16 year old girl is supposed to shock I assume but how many girls of 16 are having genuine consensual encounters with men this age? And how many men that age would even want to tbh. Most men would find that idea pretty grim. Men are not all creeps.

In the context of this thread which is about porn the age of consent comment also seems off topic. Currently in the UK it is illegal to perform in porn before you are 18. You don't mention anything about that so in the context of the thread are you meaning that eg a film of two or more 14 year old children having sex would be legal. I want to clarify due to the randomness of a point about lowering the age of consent on s thread about porn, specifically incest porn.

[JediGnot]

My understanding is that women often get very upset when other people presume to know better than what the woman herself is directly expressing. Obviously my experience right now is trivial compared to what women go through day in day out, but it is pretty tiresome and tiring.

At 2.36.50 I said -

"Clearly, other things being equal, I would consider the consumer of rape porn much more likely to be an actual or potential rapist than a consumer of vanilla porn... I wouldn't blame you for wishing to avoid them... but neither would assume that just because someone has sick fantasies they are actually sick in real life."

How much more clear can I be? I get why you wouldn't be happy to find your other half watching porn which is pretending to depict rape - I get that it could be a deal-breaker for you - but sick "fantasies" don't necessarily mean someone's sick, IMHO.

If I am wrong, if the data's there to prove otherwise, then the police should be rounding up anyone who searches for "dodgy" (as opposed to illegal) porn.

[NiceGerbil]

Ah now we move onto the usual

Prove there's a link between consuming this (on purpose, moving towards it as you watch more and want more tabboo images, coming across it by accident) and sexual abuse/ rape.

Oh well to do it you'd have to police all people's search history really heavily.

The porn is not the problem young people accessing it is. Off you go and magically sort that out. Because any action to restrict the 'right' of adults to view all sorts of material cannot be removed as that would not be fair as lots of people (men) like this stuff.

Coming up in 321...

Women love this sort of porn why focus on men it's not fair
Parents should be looking after their children

That's my guess anyway.

[NiceGerbil]

This isn't about our parents watching imagery of women being raped.

It's about the teenage girl in the story and what she found and how she felt. You initially said essentially that it was a bit shit for her but really what's the problem.

[JediGnot]

@NiceGerbil

I note also that you would like the age of consent lowered to 14 with some rules which seem a bit odd.

The UK would not prosecute eg a 16yo and a 14 yo having consensual sex as it's not seen as being in the public interest. You would criminalise this and presumably want it enforced otherwise what's the point of changing the law.

Your example of it being legal for a 70 year old man and a 16 year old girl is supposed to shock I assume but how many girls of 16 are having genuine consensual encounters with men this age? And how many men that age would even want to tbh. Most men would find that idea pretty grim. Men are not all creeps.

In the context of this thread which is about porn the age of consent comment also seems off topic. Currently in the UK it is illegal to perform in porn before you are 18. You don't mention anything about that so in the context of the thread are you meaning that eg a film of two or more 14 year old children having sex would be legal. I want to clarify due to the randomness of a point about lowering the age of consent on s thread about porn, specifically incest porn.

Age of consent. That was a bit of a pointless tangent. My point (clumsily made) was about how I find older men who want to sleep with young women / girls highly problematic irrespective of which side of the consent line the girl sits on (though it is much worse if it is literal paedophilia under the law, obviously)... I think a 15 year old who wants to sleep with his 14 year old girlfriend is much less problematic than a 32 year old who wants to sleep with a 17 year old.

My knowledge of and interest in the precise details of consent law in the UK is limited, but I can assure you if I changed the law it would probably make it harder for men my age to sleep with young women, and it categorically would not make it easier.

I honestly was not even vaguely considering the age of consent for porn when I posted that. Given the potential downsides of becoming a porn performer my inclination would be that there may be some argument for 19-21 being the minimum age, not 18. I can't see any reason why anyone would want to reduce it unless they have deeply dodgy motives.

[NiceGerbil]

Then you changed your mind when you saw the other information that indicated he was indeed behaving inappropriately with his daughter.

And yet even though on this thread about this girl and her father you keep saying it's no indication of a dodgy bloke. Apart from... In this case it was. The one we're actually talking about.

All this random stuff is being posted why

Lower the age of consent
You find gay sex disgusting
I can see why women might be upset if they find their partners googling rape porn

This is all misdirection isn't it?

[NiceGerbil]

Are you not in the UK?! Or just don't know much about the laws around consent?

If you don't know the laws then don't you think it's a bit bold to say they should be changed?

[JediGnot]

@NiceGerbil

Ah now we move onto the usual

Prove there's a link between consuming this (on purpose, moving towards it as you watch more and want more tabboo images, coming across it by accident) and sexual abuse/ rape.

Oh well to do it you'd have to police all people's search history really heavily.

The porn is not the problem young people accessing it is. Off you go and magically sort that out. Because any action to restrict the 'right' of adults to view all sorts of material cannot be removed as that would not be fair as lots of people (men) like this stuff.

Coming up in 321...

Women love this sort of porn why focus on men it's not fair
Parents should be looking after their children

That's my guess anyway.

I'm not disagreeing with most of what you say. My point is that I have serious moral issues with policing what consenting adults do and watch. If the evidence is there that what consenting adults do in private can be linked to or lead to illegal activity then it would be great if we can identify those people and stop them before they commit crimes.

I'm not sure that making more porn illegal will help though, not least because people will still access if they want to. I simply do not believe that you will stop adults accessing this porn neither of us want to watch, and you can bet your life if adults can access it then tech savvy kids will too.

If I could magically prevent all children ever seeing porn I would, but I simply do not believe you can achieve that, and if you tried you'd be infringing on the right of adults (which is not necessarily a problem if it's proportionate).

I am not any sort of expert on what porn women do or don't like so I won't be bringing that up. Parents, schools, society as a whole all need to do their best to ensure that children understand that when they inevitably see porn huge swathes of it bears zero relation to real sex. Parents should be looking after their children - obviously - but some can't and some won't which means we need others in society (not least schools) to ensure that no child falls through the gaps and doesn't get the information that they need.

[MondayYogurt]

I don't have tiktok but the screenshots from this thread indicate that other children have experienced this as escalating behaviour.

twitter.com/newcrunchymom/status/1389315994749919233?s=21

[JediGnot]

@NiceGerbil

Are you not in the UK?! Or just don't know much about the laws around consent?

If you don't know the laws then don't you think it's a bit bold to say they should be changed?

I am in the UK and know the age of consent in the UK. As I just said (and even acknowledged when I first posted) it was a bit of a weird tangent. My only point was to stress that I think older men wanting to have sex with young women is highly problematic / wrong.

I think that the laws around 14 and 15 year olds having sex with each other could perhaps be changed to reflect what you say are current prosecution guidelines. Other than this one example my proposal would effectively raise the age of consent as people would need to be older before their were "fair game" to all (c) The Sun.

[NiceGerbil]

Jedi here it's not too too long and is written in pretty understandable language

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents

The CPS is where to look for the public interest notes around consent

[JediGnot]

@NiceGerbil

Then you changed your mind when you saw the other information that indicated he was indeed behaving inappropriately with his daughter.

And yet even though on this thread about this girl and her father you keep saying it's no indication of a dodgy bloke. Apart from... In this case it was. The one we're actually talking about.

All this random stuff is being posted why

Lower the age of consent
You find gay sex disgusting
I can see why women might be upset if they find their partners googling rape porn

This is all misdirection isn't it?

I don't believe that men googling legal but "dodgy" porn proves that they are themselves offenders or would-be offenders. I understand why women would be disgusted and run a mile from such men. If the evidence is there that there is a significant link between legal but dodgy porn and offending then that knowledge should be used to identify potential offenders and actual offenders ASAP.

I said that at first I did not click on the link, and even now I have read little of it.

[NiceGerbil]

Well no the law is 16 to make it easier to prosecute those who are coercive etc (even though there are laws about that in their own right).

It also is s clear message in society that 16 is the cut off. (Some say that is too low, it's out of step with who etc).

Changing this to 14 would in practice make that the age in society. Sex offences are rarely prosecuted