A little bit more on ‘White’ Feminism

[ATieLikeRichardGere]

Hope we can continue what has been overall an interesting discussion.

I suggest it would be good if we could think more about the UK, because it has been under discussed so far.

I certainly don’t think Chinese women should be lifting up their white sisters! What we would need would be much more precise data which showed how much high achieving minority groups (Irish, Indian, Chinese) were being rewarded in pay and status compared to white British in the same professions.

But my starting point for ethnic and sex gap data was that someone used USA data, which is completely different.

‘Something i am not sure has been touched on is that in uk society you take on the status of your father and then your spouse!’

Not true for me or most women I know.

@ATieLikeRichardGere

(Aside: I think it’s interesting how eg Disney blends narratives about women conforming and not conforming. All the princesses don’t fit in, are “different”, they want out of their “little town” or out of the palace or out of the sea or whatever. But then they all get married and live happily ever after when they do. Also they rarely have mothers.

Also, lots to discuss in the intriguing unwhitening of the protagonists in Frozen 2.)

Well to me that part of the messaging. First you appeal to the girl...assure her she is special and different, that her desires to have an adventure are common....but all that is essentially childish and naive because all the Disney princesses discover true love and become mature wives who settle down adoring their prince and live happily ever after.

There is an element too of danger, life threatened, near escapes such that by the end of the film, the princess is grateful she has found a prince and can live peacefully with no more life threatening nonsense.

@LibertyMole
I think that was me who posted US data. It’s only data I knew of that even scratched the surface of what concerns me.

@LibertyMole

‘Something i am not sure has been touched on is that in uk society you take on the status of your father and then your spouse!’

Not true for me or most women I know.

I can give some examples. When my son is ill and i take him to the doctor. The doctors assumes i am an anxious mother and sends me away When my husband takes him, they sit up and listen and my son gets treatment.

When i book my car in for a service i get quoted a higher price than my husband!

When my son had behaviour issues the atmosphere in the room changed from one of accusation to support when my husband attended the medting. So many SEN mums report the same. Its no coincjdence that most of the people imprisoned for their childrens non attendance at school are single mums of children with SEN.

People in shops talk directly to my husband not to me, and assume i can afford what they think he can afford if that makes sense.

@LibertyMole This part of your post is what I think I'm trying to say albeit haphazardly:

I would also take white feminism to mean feminism that focuses too much on the experiences of white women.

I also dislike the current trend of having mixed families in every advert. I mean really; I think mixed race women are often held up as the acceptable face/voice of black women. Somehow more palatable and it irks me. And yes it is often black man + white woman and curly haired light skinned child running & jumping on the sofa.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@SmokedDuck
women who had pretty significant power and respect in their communities in all kinds of documents and in literature. (Mitred abbesses are one instance I find quite interesting, for example.)

Correct me if I’m wrong but an Abbess was in charge of an all-female community of nuns. So, I don’t think power over other women really counts? In addition, all Abbess’ were under the authority of the local male bishop or if a joint male/female community, the Abbot next door. Often the bishop wouldn’t even manage an Abbess but appoint a priest in his household to manage the Abbess and convent. So an Abbess only had agency over other women.....and she in turn was not fully independent within the church as her male counterparts, Abbots were.[/quote]
No, that is not really what a mitred abbess was. Though even in the "regular" sort of abbess to sat that this was just a leader of women is to really minimise the kind of respect and influence they had in the community overall.

But in the early medieval church a lot of the administrative power operated instead through the monastic system rather than the diocese - this was especially true in the Celtic church. So the head of the monastery had quite a lot of power in what we might think of as a secular sense. Abbots were of course priests and so functioned not only as leaders and administrators of justice and such, but sacramentally. But monasteries of women, or female leaders of mixed ones, could and did fulfil a similar role. Since women did not function as priests they didn't have the sacramental role but they did have all the same power in terms of the community at large. They were called "mitred" because they functioned very much as a bishop did. Though weirdly they did not actually wear a mitre - they did carry a crozier though which is the bishop's symbol of office.

Reading about, and the letters of, medieval women in general doesn't give one anything like the sense that FWR does of their abject character.

Mildred, yes, I agree with that, especially in the NHS.

Perhaps I mean that more and more women are not married ever or unmarried for longer periods of time.

So I am going to be totally honest in how I’m feeling here, in the hope that this might be helpful and I hope you’ll be charitable to me but you might not be.

So, I am now finding it a bit psychologically hard to come on board with activism around high pay for educated people, so this is probably my white feminism coming out. I’m putting my hands up on it, but I hope it’s helpful to explain where I am coming from.

From my perspective, I am white and middle class by background but my own life’s earning potential has been irreparably and seriously hampered by life long mental illness and other disability. Meanwhile my working class husband is not currently working (though he is paid thankfully) and experiencing severe disability from an illness partly linked to his working class lifestyle. We are struggling. So that’s me casting myself as a victim, but these are true facts.

So now I suddenly don’t feel totally enthused for helping already well paid people do better, though I can see that there is a real equality issue there! My emotional reaction is that, I don’t have much capacity to care about that issue. That I have to stick to something more to do with survival.

Just being honest.

But I would obviously still vote for a policy to improve equality in this area. I just wouldn’t probably be so keen to organise around it.

‘I also dislike the current trend of having mixed families in every advert. I mean really; I think mixed race women are often held up as the acceptable face/voice of black women. Somehow more palatable and it irks me. And yes it is often black man + white woman and curly haired light skinned child running & jumping on the sofa.’

Yes. I really notice every time now. I want to see black women represented in family situations.

‘So, I am now finding it a bit psychologically hard to come on board with activism around high pay for educated people, so this is probably my white feminism coming out. I’m putting my hands up on it, but I hope it’s helpful to explain where I am coming from.’

I understand that totally, and I have no intention of doing anything about it either. High paying jobs are not in my area of influence or concern, but I am not opposed to someone else sorting it out.

@SmokedDuck
Thank you for explanation of mitred Abbesses and how that was Celtic church. I have only read about. Catholic Church! Which we know had deep effect and caused women’s status to be lowered in medieval times. I’m going to see if I can find books on Celtic church because all I knew before your post was that their priests could marry.

So, I am not sure what to make of the fact that some people think "white feminism" is white women being shits to black women.

I've only ever seen that here and I don't understand where it comes from.

So, I am now finding it a bit psychologically hard to come on board with activism around high pay for educated people, so this is probably my white feminism coming out.

Sigh. But I did not think I needed to explain that this trickles down and affects minority women at all levels of education? It’s not just about the PhD getting the same pay as an MSc. It’s also about needing A levels to be viewed the same and get paid the same as a white woman with only GCSEs. It’s top to bottom.

I’m sorry about your struggles, and understand because you are suffering under multiple oppressions of class and disability, that you don’t have much energy for feminism. I don’t think that is “white feminism” per se, more that you and your DH have a lot to contend with through classism and ableism before we even get to sexism.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@SmokedDuck
Thank you for explanation of mitred Abbesses and how that was Celtic church. I have only read about. Catholic Church! Which we know had deep effect and caused women’s status to be lowered in medieval times. I’m going to see if I can find books on Celtic church because all I knew before your post was that their priests could marry.[/quote]
Lowered compared to??!! Women in the Roman empire?

Plan, focus on women at the bottom can also impact on women at the top. It was after all working class women who got women the right to equal pay.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Ok yes that’s a really important point to think that it affects people at all levels. I do see that it’s a true systemic problem and that I should pay attention to it even if it feels far removed sometimes. I do find that difficult.

Do you know where I read your post with its understanding tone there instead of a berating one I actually did burst into tears! So maybe that is a form of white tears. Bloody hell. Maybe I made you do emotional labour for me. Sorry about that. But it did help me.

The list of problems in the world is very long and none erases any other.

There is also an element of if someone is high up, what do they want more power and status for.

If someone is training to be a doctor, and they want to get to the top in psychiatry so that they can reduce the racism and sexism that psychiatric patients face, that’s great.

But if someone wants to be the next Bill Gates or similar, well I don’t actually want there to be more people who are exploiting people and who have too much power. So I am not interested in widening the range of people who can aspire to corruption and exploitation.

I do think the focus should mostly be on the poor.

Yes, I personally don't think society would be improved by having a black Jeff Bezos etc.

@ATieLikeRichardGere I don't think everyone has the mental bandwidth for everything therefore I don't think you not really having much gumption to challenge pay at the top doesn't at all reflect on you as a person and what you give a damn about. I don't have the wherewithal to fight for more women CEOs or whatever - it's just not on my radar. Interestingly when you look at woc at the 'highest' places in the country e.g. say Priti Patel or Kemi Badenoch they absolutely do not represent me and what I believe in.

No, not Roman women! Depends on country I think as some were more Romanised than others? In Britain and Germania wasn’t it more that there were Roman colonists and military occupation, but the tribes still had their chiefs/lands as client kingdoms and paid tribute to Rome in form of money, crops, livestock and men for their army? So the Germanic and British regular people carried on in their villages much as they did before with their own religion and cultural practices? Then Christianity (borrowing from Rome), came shortly after with Roman missionaries, it took hold and that changed life and status of average woman moreso than Roman occupation did? At least that is my impression.

But then the older colonies like Gaul, Romania and Hispania. They had been part of Empire for much longer and so they had been more Romanised, and with it had adopted Roman laws on women.

Also, I know here in France for example, oppression of women got worse during the Middle Ages. We had Queens regnant of kingdoms like Aquitaine and Navarre in early Middle Ages, but King Phillip the Fair got with help of church a law passed that no woman could inherit a throne (ever again). Too there is witch burning. Early Middle Ages it was common for a housewife to be a herbalist and make home cures for common ailments, do first aid, work as a midwife. This later came under scrutiny by the church as heretical and fighting gods will so witch finders and witch burning started in the 14th century.

@LibertyMole

Plan, focus on women at the bottom can also impact on women at the top. It was after all working class women who got women the right to equal pay.

Yes very true!

Do you know where I read your post with its understanding tone there instead of a berating one I actually did burst into tears! So maybe that is a form of white tears.

@ATieLikeRichardGere No op it isn't a form of white tears. White tears isn't the equivalent of a white woman actually crying or being emotional. I totally understand your reaction to the tone used and this is part of what we all as human beings really tend to need from each other I'm sorry about your situation and I agree there's a lot more on your plate personally than worrying about what others earn.

The list of problems in the world is very long and none erases any other.
I agree with this.

Oh OP,
It’s ok. I don’t mind. I think you serve same function for me to understand and empathise with ableism that I do for you to see racism within feminism. I’m not disabled so I have my own blind spot. None of us see all and know all, that’s why it’s important to have these discussions as women. Collectively, we have no blind spots!

@LibertyMole
So fear that a minority might turn into a Bill Gates means feminism should focus only on poor minority women? What do you mean by it depends on why we want equal status and power?

Sorry but I see that as a bit phobic of minorities really gaining equal status and power. Like deep inside you question whether we have same level of morality and good intentions as white people. You worry that for every white Bill Gates there will be what 2,3, more minority Bill Gates?

It is also a bait and switch. As an Asian girl the focus was on education as the way to achieve equality. Be good, assimilate and work within the system. Get western degrees from good western universities for example. Now I have the education, and am not poor, but not the equal status I was told I would get. What will you sell to poor Asian women? Probably the same as I was told.

@LibertyMole

‘the hourly pay of ethnic minority women was 2.1% more than White women.’

That quote is just above figure 5. In figure 5 the pay for the groups you mentioned are:

Black Caribbean women: 12.09
Black Caribbean men: 12.03
White British women: 11.21

Whereas White Irish women earn 16.95. I think there is something else going on in this data tbh.

@PlanDeRaccordement I agree with your statement that pay only shows one aspect and is one issue that could possibly be easily solved so people can pat themselves on the back without dealing with the major issues women from ethnic minorities face.