A little bit more on ‘White’ Feminism

[ATieLikeRichardGere]

Hope we can continue what has been overall an interesting discussion.

I suggest it would be good if we could think more about the UK, because it has been under discussed so far.

@MissBarbary
Yes not sure what the Highland clearances have to do with feminism?

@SuperLoudPoppingAction Is this by Neil Davidson? I'd like to read. I do love a good book about these sort of things.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@MissBarbary
Yes not sure what the Highland clearances have to do with feminism?[/quote]
Why are you asking me? I didn't mention them first.

@MissBarbary Scotland did exceptionally well out of the empire but for 'reasons' are able to push it on the 'English'. I have many Jamaican cousins who for rEaSoNs have Scottish surnames and ancestry!

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@MissBarbary
Yes not sure what the Highland clearances have to do with feminism?[/quote]
Sorry, misread your post- thought you were asking me why I'd mentioned it.

Yes but taking it all back to feminism - someone on the other thread raised relativism. Which though I am not condoning might go some way in explaining the views of white women at the time. I just think whether or not a white woman regards herself as an ally or a feminist; her whiteness is a shield nonetheless of whatever she thinks/does.

What is whiteness a shield from? I’m just digging deeper, not pushing back.

"her whiteness is a shield nonetheless of whatever she thinks/does."
I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly - a shield against what? Is this about 'lived experience'? We all have our own experiences of the world, with race being one factor in that, does that mean it's impossible to have empathy for anyone who is different to us in any way?

@VladmirsPoutine
Sorry views of white women at what time? and where?

@Novelusername Absolutely no I don't mean that precludes me or anyone from having empathy. For a start Ruby's teacher (from the last thread). But what I meant by that is there's always going to be a point at which whiteness trumps woman-ness (if that makes sense). In that - whiteness will always hold structural power and those with proximity to it will be better off than those without. Of course I don't mean in every single circumstance, and of course I know in some circumstances whiteness will not help, but in the main it does help. That's why when we discuss feminism I find it helpful to specifically mention 'white' feminism. Because therein lies a certain privilege which despite me being a woman and being feminist will never be privy to.

Yep Neil Davidson et al - luath press.

Is it not really middle class feminism? My financial security gives me far more options than I had when I was poor. Obviously there is white privilege, but I don't see how that benefits women in different ways to men.

I didn't read the last thread so apologies if I'm repeating anything.

But what I meant by that is there's always going to be a point at which whiteness trumps woman-ness (if that makes sense). In that - whiteness will always hold structural power and those with proximity to it will be better off than those without.

I don’t think that is true. I think it’s the opposite way around. Sex trumps race. Both in U.K. or US.
It’s no accident than nonwhite men got the vote and equal rights in law well before women did.
It’s no accident that the US had a black president ..and wait never had a woman president ever. The U.K. has had 2 female PMs but both were/are reviled and hated.
It’s no accident that nonwhite men still out earn all women, white or not. Along those lines, it’s no accident that women are disportionately living in poverty.

VladmirsPoutine can you give any examples?that I can then attempt to tear apart It's not so much that I disagree, I'm just struggling to see exactly what you mean.

What can a white person who is a feminist do to improve things?

I think my issue with the construction around white feminism is that it kind of sets white people like myself up to fail, because we can never not be white and so by definition we don’t get it. And I don’t dispute that. But the part I’m less sure about is, how much does that matter? The solution seems to be construed as a sort of repentance/submission for white people. But then I am still left wondering, in terms of practical activism, what should I be doing? What, as a white person, in the UK am I not getting about the needs and desires of women of colour? Recognising that that is also a diverse group. I’d rather that I am thinking about it wrongly, but acting in a way that will help. Than thinking right, but not helping.

I hope that makes some sense.

(As an aside, someone asked what the highland clearances had to do with feminism, and that has sent me down a very interesting internet rabbit hole with some interesting parallels to our discussion. I may be in here some time.)

@ATieLikeRichardGere I understand your point entirely. But in many respects and I don't mean this necessarily towards you - but just in the broader sense of white women is that women like myself can spend so much time explaining and explaining ourselves, seeking some sort of validation from white women that we end up just exhausted and even questioning ourselves. Therefore I have given up 'professionally' explaining myself. Reni Eddo-Lodge had a wonderful book about this. When I read that it was as though someone had breathed oxygen into my lungs.

I personally don't take this as seriously as I used to because it used to enrage me until one day someone told me to just give it up. But at just the most minute level 'whiteness' as a structure is very strong. That's not to say that all white women must have it easy. But when you grow up seeing something - indeed at quite a personal level - it does bring it home.

Someone on the last thread said they'd rather face misogyny than racism and I agreed with her. Call me a dumb b*tch any day of the week and i'll even smile back but call me the n-word and chances are I'll go home and cry that night.

I think the 2nd Duchess of Sutherland might be an example of white feminism in action around the highland clearances:

“Many women landowners were responsible for clearance, encouraged sheep farming and developed deer forests, whilst at the same helping to promote the home industries. The 4th Duchess of Sutherland, in contrast, attempted to improve the local economy as a form of reparation for previous mass clearances undertaken by the Sutherland family, and to divest herself of the reputation associated with the title Duchess of Sutherland. For some, the philanthropic trend provided a convenient counterpoint to guilt, in that landowners were able to shift the emphasis from eviction to their charitable efforts. The 2nd Duchess of Sutherland, certainly had no qualms in supporting the anti-slavery movement whilst remaining unmoved by the treatment of tenants on her husband's estates as little more than pawns.”

If the idea of white feminism is that they fail as feminists by ultimately backing race over sex them the 2nd Duchess of Sutherland is the absolute example of the opposite.
Happy to support emancipation of slaves while starving white woman off her land.

Not convinced this makes her a better person or feminist.

@VladmirsPoutine
Have listened to Reni Eddo-Lodge talking about this and I felt I got a new level of understanding from that.

I totally recognise that I’ve no sense of what it feels like to be called a racist thing. And the fact that I can’t really put myself in another person’s shoes on this is notable. I feel I have nothing to compare it to. I take your word on it absolutely.

Just got to the end of the last thread.

Not all women are feminists and not every choice a woman makes is a feminist choice, even if she calls herself a feminist. We've had threads and threads and threads about that here, over the years.

That holds true whether we're talking about white women or black women or women of any other race, any class, any religion or culture, any sexual orientation ...

So it seems very strange to me that any racist thing a white woman did ever, in any country, in any period of history, is being held up as 'white feminism'.

How does this help?

I don’t know, Duchess sounds slightly anti-racism but not feminist at all. She didn’t even question her husband’s rule on his estates. Not sure how she can be called a landowner, when it would be the Duke who actually owned the land.

‘Out of interest is anyone on this thread who has Irish, Scottish or Welsh ancestry feel as though they get looked over and lumped in as just 'The Brits' when people are airing their grievances over the English. Because one thing I have noticed is that it seems perfectly fine for Scots, Irish and Welsh to be proud of their heritage but when an English person expresses such a sentiment along come the accusations of racism. That said - Scotland has done well in rebranding!’

I am mainly of Scottish and Irish descent but consider myself mostly English because that is the culture I have grown up in. I am proud to be English.

Happy to support emancipation of slaves while starving white woman off her land

That’s just it though, she was permitted to support anti-slavery because it had nothing to do with her husband’s lands or tenants or income. I wouldn’t agree that she starved white women her land...it’s not her land, it’s her husband’s land. So he would be the one starving tenants or driving them off the land. The most she could do is make charity baskets with extra food from the kitchens and hope the Duke wouldn’t be bothered by or notice a tiny increase in the food bill.

Fair point @PlanDeRaccordement. The Scottish feudal system still gives women almost no rights.

I have recently finished reading a book about the history of the Native Americans, where the author herself was particularly scathing of the impact of the Ulster Scots on the native population.

I am cautious about mentioning this because firstly I've complained a lot about this thread being obsessed with the USA.

And secondly women really weren't the driving problem.

But between that and for example the biography of Hamilton it is really obvious that Scots were active participants in colonial life and all the oppression of others that entailed.

So as a Scot I'm fine with accepting we actively benefited from slavery specifically and colonial life in general.

Glasgow Uni has researched the benefits they acquired for example.

But I'm really not sure this was driven by women or that they gained directly from this.

I'm not sure that the working class Scots my family came from really saw that benefit however and the women particularly didn't.