A little bit more on ‘White’ Feminism

[ATieLikeRichardGere]

Hope we can continue what has been overall an interesting discussion.

I suggest it would be good if we could think more about the UK, because it has been under discussed so far.

I ever
You also must have missed my post at 9.59 where I explicitly stated: I've no doubt that this happens

Now, if white feminist do not listen to us, and do not validate and include what we show them in their feminist goals, then that feminism becomes white feminism.
This is what I'm pointing to. But how can it be if there's denial of the issue being shown.

I think frequently oppressed becomes oppressor. We see this repeatedly in history.

This is why Marx was wrong. He oversimplified the complexity of society and history. I really do not like how feminism has become more Marxist in its analyses and discussions.

@inever

it doesn't mean that such a crime is common or that I'm ever going to do it, and to establish a theory that all women are guilty of this would be highly misogynistic

Who is saying this is all white women or that you'll do it? I agree that we all have the potential to do something but people are pointing this out as a problem, not pointing you out as one.

People who've lived this and see this everyday have said this is common. It happens, yet you, who hasn't seen it is adamant that it doesn't happen because you haven't seen it. Do you see the similarities between what you're doing and notallmen and men saying "it doesnt happen because we don't see it"?

PLEASE READ WHAT I'VE SAID. "I don't doubt this happens" "I'm not saying these things don't happen" You can't make shit up and say that I'm saying it never happens, you're projecting a racist stereotype of 'white tears' onto me by doing so. I've clearly stated more than once that this happens. And as I've said, critical race theory puts all white people in the guilty camp.

[quote LibertyMole]Women from minority ethnic groups earn on average 2.1% more than white women.

You can see it broken down by ethnicity on the ONS website. Pakistani women for example earn less than white women while black Caribbean women earn more:

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/ethnicitypaygapsingreatbritain/2019[/quote]
I can’t see the data showing that. Their isn’t a comparison for White British male and female on the chart that compares the difference between ethnic origins and male and female pay. It is true that black Caribbean women on average earn marginally more than black Caribbean men. White Irish men and women earn significantly more than black Caribbean men and women on that chart.

An example I have heard of white feminism that strikes me as true is the idea that there should be fewer examples in storytelling of women having a romantic happy ever after and instead a focus on broader roles and goals for women. This ignores that black women are rarely featured as the recipient of happily ever after type romantic gestures in storytelling.

Even in advertising mixed couples are usually white woman and black man, not the other way around.

I would also say that because white feminists are increasingly secular, they can sometimes treat religious women (who are disproportionately minority ethnic women) as kind of exotic, or talk about it in an oddly cheerful way or just don’t really ‘get’ religion.

I would also take white feminism to mean feminism that focuses too much on the experiences of white women. I don’t think it means every white feminist is carrying out white feminism, although presumably people who believe in standpoint theory do believe it is done by every white feminist.

@inever

Now, if white feminist do not listen to us, and do not validate and include what we show them in their feminist goals, then that feminism becomes white feminism. This is what I'm pointing to. But how can it be if there's denial of the issue being shown.

Agree. And agree there is some denial here. Examples of racist white women are missing the point too, and so can’t really fault the defensiveness also apparent.

Basically while we are all women and have experiences in common, there are also experiences that are unique to minority women, and even between different minorities. And I use the mirror analogy because I think it’s not on we minority women to passively look at what white feminists are doing and then critique it or amend it after the fact.
It is also for white women to make it habit to ask us for our input when it is at the bright idea stage. We need to be there at the beginning. Not afterwards because then white feminists tend to get defensive and try and justify the omission or worse, tell us it’s all in our head or tell us it’s very minor and we should support it “as is” and they’ll address our concerns “later”.

Interesting. I've moaned my whole life about fairy tales and rom coms, and I believe they are tangentially responsible for my friend marrying a lazy twat.

Are you suggesting that instead of railing against the inherent misogyny of the tropes of romance in cultural output, feminists should try to get more black women into the happy ever after narrative? I'm sorry if I've misread your point here.

‘the hourly pay of ethnic minority women was 2.1% more than White women.’

That quote is just above figure 5. In figure 5 the pay for the groups you mentioned are:

Black Caribbean women: 12.09
Black Caribbean men: 12.03
White British women: 11.21

I don’t think women should put more effort into such tropes, but I do think that when black women want a romantic outcome for a character in a tv series (for example), we should understand that what is driving that is a resistance to stereotypes that black women are undeserving of stable loving long term relationships.

@PlanDeRaccordement

What you’re saying is very believable. It would really help me to understand more if you could give an example of a white feminist initiative where this happened, just for me to see it in action. The type of issue where white feminists said they’d incorporate WOC concerns “later”.

@Novelusername Fine. You saying you don't doubt this happens was in response to something else, you weren't responding to me. You just seem to be more defensive about it but Fair enough, I misspoke when I said you claim it doesn't happen. What you keep saying is that its not common because you haven't seen it or experienced it and my argument to you (as you can clearly see from the post you quote) is you cannot make that claim. You're not in the position to do so if a man isn't in the position to claim prejudice against women is not as common as women say it is. It IS common. Its a daily experience for many black women. Your lack of experience doesn't invalidate how common it is.

You also appear to be more concerned with #notallwhitepeople when I've also mentioned over and over that it isn't all white people. I don't buy into crt so your projecting your thoughts about it onto what I'm saying, which has nothing to do with it.

The thread is moving fast so I may respond to something you've already mentioned further down the line.

An example I have heard of white feminism that strikes me as true is the idea that there should be fewer examples in storytelling of women having a romantic happy ever after

This is a side comment as I know it’s not what you were using this example for in your post.

Yes, I have noticed that western patriarchy is perpetuated through the happily ever after reward for conforming women. The messaging is universally that the “good girl” gets the happily ever after.

But interesting to me, this is opposite of Chinese patriarchy. There our stories focus on women who did not conform, and their tragic endings. The messaging is the bad girl dies young, horribly and in misery.

Both achieve the same ends. So while I agree we need less of the happily ever after stories, we also need less of the so sad, too bad endings.

I agree with everything you have said, PlanDeRaccordement

Basically while we are all women and have experiences in common, there are also experiences that are unique to minority women, and even between different minorities. And I use the mirror analogy because I think it’s not on we minority women to passively look at what white feminists are doing and then critique it or amend it after the fact.
It is also for white women to make it habit to ask us for our input when it is at the bright idea stage. We need to be there at the beginning. Not afterwards because then white feminists tend to get defensive and try and justify the omission or worse, tell us it’s all in our head or tell us it’s very minor and we should support it “as is” and they’ll address our concerns “later”.

Yes i agree. You're saying it better than i am.

(Aside: I think it’s interesting how eg Disney blends narratives about women conforming and not conforming. All the princesses don’t fit in, are “different”, they want out of their “little town” or out of the palace or out of the sea or whatever. But then they all get married and live happily ever after when they do. Also they rarely have mothers.

Also, lots to discuss in the intriguing unwhitening of the protagonists in Frozen 2.)

[quote ATieLikeRichardGere]@PlanDeRaccordement

What you’re saying is very believable. It would really help me to understand more if you could give an example of a white feminist initiative where this happened, just for me to see it in action. The type of issue where white feminists said they’d incorporate WOC concerns “later”.[/quote]
Currently, for example, an issue that concerns me is status of Asian (Chinese ethnicity) women in western companies. Right now, the focus is all on pay gaps as a proxy. But Asian women tend to be better educated than white women, and so there is little to no pay gap between us and white women. Instead there is a clear status gap. So while we tend to be paid as well as white women, and better educated, we still hold fewer management positions or executive positions than white women do. To me the push to just get women represented on boards, as executives is not nuanced enough. I know that they do try and also consider minority women, but the assumption is that all women from all ethnicities are equally educated and qualified. That’s not really the case. It often appears to me that a minority woman must be better educated, more qualified or more experienced to reach the same level as a white woman. She may be earning the same or close to the same as white women, but she is not given the same level of responsibility or trust.

"What you keep saying is that its not common because you haven't seen it or experienced it and my argument to you (as you can clearly see from the post you quote) is you cannot make that claim."
I was actually posing it as a question, I haven't made the claim that white women getting POC in trouble is not common, although yes, it's something I haven't witnessed. The reason for my question is that I wonder why the focus on 'white women's tears' specifically, it appears to be misogynistic. As others pointed out on the other thread, women's tears are not believed in cases of rape, 99% of which go unconvicted. I'm not denying unscrupulous women can turn on the waterworks to try to manipulate, but the way this is being focussed on and taken to be a phenomena any more than any other means of manipulation that men may also employ feels very misogynistic.

Average pay for Chinese women is 14.60 compared to 11.21 for white British women.

I definitely agree that the more prejudice you are likely to face the more you turn to educational qualifications to move forward. You need to be more qualified than the people you are competing against.

So what worries me is that once the pay gap between ethnicities of women closes, white feminist will wash their hands and say job done. But there is more to it than pay. There is also parity of pay compared to education, qualification and experience. There is also parity of status and authority to pay.

Average pay for Chinese women is 14.60 compared to 11.21 for white British women.

Yes. Exactly. By just looking at pay, it looks like Chinese women have nothing to complain about and we should be lifting up our white sisters. But to me, pay isn’t a good proxy for equality.

To me the push to just get women represented on boards, as executives is not nuanced enough. I know that they do try and also consider minority women, but the assumption is that all women from all ethnicities are equally educated and qualified. That’s not really the case. It often appears to me that a minority woman must be better educated, more qualified or more experienced to reach the same level as a white woman. She may be earning the same or close to the same as white women, but she is not given the same level of responsibility or trust

I agree with this.

I don’t necessarily want to see pay more based on qualifications though. It undermines working class people’s pay and forces more and more people into university.

@PlanDeRaccordement

And what should white women’s role be in improving that situation? That is maybe where I’m getting stuck.

Something i am not sure has been touched on is that in uk society you take on the status of your father and then your spouse! People will deny this or say its only in the monarchy. But being married to a 'high status' white male has improved my prospects (as a white woman). I dont mean in terms of his access to his earnings.