A little bit more on ‘White’ Feminism

[ATieLikeRichardGere]

Hope we can continue what has been overall an interesting discussion.

I suggest it would be good if we could think more about the UK, because it has been under discussed so far.

Women throughout time have clearly had varying amounts of power, sometimes quite a bit, but they were often part of a system, possibly a patriarchal one, and it’s difficult to see retrospectively how much agency it all really translated to.

Bringing it to today, I ask the same thing about myself. I’m wealthy enough buy my food from the supermarket. I’m sure some of it comes with a dose of exploitation and when I buy it, I’m complicit. According to some emails I’ve had, areas of the Amazon are being cleared to grow soy to feed chicken I’ve bought from Tesco. I’m sure this has been terrible for indigenous women, and also for the planet.

So I’m complicit with my purchasing power. I do try to make better consumer choices. But my time and money is limited. I have other real problems in my life. I sometimes thing I’d like to buy a small holding and grow all my own food, but I don’t have the money or skills as it stands to do this. And we couldn’t all do this.

So - how much power do I really have. On the one hand lots and on the other not a lot. It’s a confusing picture to me and I’m inside it, let along looking at historical situations.

If you visit thd Weald and Dowand museum it has homes from different eras but also a different levels of society. I remember them saying that any income from the dairy was exclusivley the womans and all other income was sort of pooled. I found it interesting there was a type of income that seemed to be reserved in that way. I dont know how rich you had to be to have a cow. But the dairy was a cool north facing space with a churn within the home.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@TenaciousOnePointOne
Yes, I understood this Fact sheet from IWPR to be saying that

“Women of all major racial and ethnic groups earn less than men of the same group, and also earn less than White men, as illustrated by Table 1. The earnings gap, both within each group and compared with White men, widened for all groups with the exception of Asian women. Hispanic workers have lower median weekly earnings than White, Black, and Asian women workers. Hispanic women’s median weekly earnings in 2019 were $642 per week of full-time work, only 56.0 percent of White non-Hispanic men’s median weekly earnings, but 85.9 percent of the median weekly earnings of Hispanic men (because Hispanic men also have low earnings). The median weekly earnings of Black women were $704, only 61.4 percent of White men’s earnings, but 91.5 percent of Black men’s median weekly earnings (Table 1). Primarily because of higher rates of educational attainment for both genders, Asian workers have higher median weekly earnings than White, Black, or Hispanic workers (the highest of any group shown in Table 1). Asian women's earnings are 89.4 percent of White men's earnings, but only 76.7 percent of Asian men's earnings. White women earn 78.4 percent of what White men earn, closer to the ratio for all women to all men, because White workers remain the largest group in the labor force.”[/quote]
This report refers to the US and not the UK? Are there reports from the UK? Have you looked at the difference in median pay? I was shocked to see that White and Asian women are closer in pay to Black men than they are to Black women and Latinas.

Very interesting @TressiliansStone

That’s interesting too @MildredPuppy

I'm just catching up and don't want to divert the very interesting conversation too much from the current topic, but to reply to VladmirsPoutine, I will try reading the Eddo-Lodge and see if what you are saying becomes clearer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying that white women will never really 'get' it, because they don't experience it themselves, and when dealing with race is too much of a hassle they will brush it off. I can totally see that, but I'd say the same happens with class, sex or countless other issues that the dominant social group don't have to deal with. I think WOC should always be checking 'white feminism' in order to see that it benefits them and they're not neglected or discriminated against. I don't think this neglect or ignorance to the needs of others different to ourselves is unique to white feminists though, but as others have pointed out, men haven't been chastised as 'white Marxists' etc, so I feel there's misogyny underpinning this label - frivolous little privileged white women spouting off when then need to keep their mouths shut. I also agree with others that I'd rather look for practical solutions to the omissions of white feminists and consider what we can do in the here and now, rather than being expected to apologise for the action of white people in the past who I have no control over.

One of the big unspoken problems that occurs within feminism is the hostility that can result from women finally finding a voice and then becoming very protective over their platform.

White men already have the whole public sphere so it doesn't happen in the same way.

The characterising a woman of colour as 'angry' or 'disruptive' in order for a white woman to keep her off a feminist platform is definitely something I've seen a good deal.
I've seen white feminists doing deep dives into someone's social media to find literally anything to smear a woman of colour. That's one thing i would recommend avoiding.

But I think it must be very hard to reflect on what you're doing while you're doing it. Maybe having friends who challenge you, and the good sense to listen to them?

Women from minority ethnic groups earn on average 2.1% more than white women.

You can see it broken down by ethnicity on the ONS website. Pakistani women for example earn less than white women while black Caribbean women earn more:

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/ethnicitypaygapsingreatbritain/2019

Im coming from the 1st thread. All i see here, as an outsider looking in, is white women (i assume as most have said) being defensive, passing the buck, playing "hot potato", "slippery soap". It seems white women are so focused on being victims (of patriarchy), they don't want to acknowledge that they can ALSO be a problem to others.

All I see is "It's not our fault, we're not to blame, let's focus on the men, what about the men?, its the men's fault, it's all misogyny, patriarchy. Women aren't a monolith but men are obviously. Everything a white woman may have done to ablack person (we don't believe she did but let's go with it because we can absolve her) has been because she was a victim of a man. Any label some white women get because of a particular behaviour has somehow been misused by men to hate on all women so we'll conveniently focus on this sudden new usage which makes us victims and discard the original usage and accusation that makes us the oppressor (eg of this: Karen, white feminism, white women's tears). We'll rather pick the words apart, call them useless or stupid than address the behaviour the words are pointing at. Phew! Now we've managed to bring the focus back to us a victims, let's carry on with that".

It's tedious and so like talking to men about feminism, misogyny or patriarchy.

I'm sure it's already been established that men are a problem to women. What black women are ALSO trying to establish is that white women are a problem to them. It's not just a middle class issue ( I think some white women are holding onto this because its easier to claim non-middle class whereas if its a white issue, they may have to look within). Any white person of any class who knows how society works knows what buttons to push to get a black person (of the same class as them) in trouble. It really is simple but peopleare swathinh it away like they suddenly can't understand a simple concept because they take it so personally and want to deny it. Makes me wonder why. The question isn't does or can this happen? Because it does.

Do you think white women's answer can ever be "Fair enough, this happens. Some women are a problem to other women" or "Fair enough, we've never witnessed this but why should we when the behaviour you're talking about isn't directed at us. So we believe you because we believe women when they talk about their experience"?

Will it ever be that easy?

I agree there's really no use bringing this up because what happens even if there's no denial? People can't apologise for what they didn't do and you can't accuse any one person here without knowing them. So whats the point? I guess its just to bring awareness to it as an issue. I also agree with moving forward to solutions but there first has to be an acknowledgement of a problem to find the solution. It just doesn't seem white feminists on here care to acknowledge this as a problem because they'll have to not be the victims in this one.

The characterising a woman of colour as 'angry' or 'disruptive' in order for a white woman to keep her off a feminist platform is definitely something I've seen a good deal.
I've seen white feminists doing deep dives into someone's social media to find literally anything to smear a woman of colour. That's one thing i would recommend avoiding.
I've no doubt that this happens, but again I wouldn't say that this is an inherently 'white' or 'feminist' behaviour, it's simply an ugly side to human nature that some people of any demographic will exhibit more than others. For me, as I'm from a working class background, I can empathize with what you're saying. If I say something about how working class experience is being ignored by the left, this is brushed off too, and I'll be dismissed as alt right/a Nazi/not really working class.

Any white person of any class who knows how society works knows what buttons to push to get a black person (of the same class as them) in trouble.
But how widespread do you think this is? I've never got someone in trouble in this way, can't imagine why someone would want to, I can't think of any examples from my personal experience. Taking examples from extreme racist behaviour such as the dog walking woman and taking that to be exemplary of all white women and we're supposed to feel guilty or ashamed is just BS. It's equally true that a POC can get a white person in trouble for crying racism and gain social media support, look at Jesse Smollet.

There are plenty of racist white women and plenty of examples of women being complicit in institutional wrongdoing.

But that isn’t the same thing as white feminism, where examples are fairly thin on the ground.

@inever

Do you think white women's answer can ever be "Fair enough, this happens. Some women are a problem to other women" or "Fair enough, we've never witnessed this but why should we when the behaviour you're talking about isn't directed at us. So we believe you because we believe women when they talk about their experience"?

I think I see quite a few people trying to be at this stage, which I hope is a good thing.

Personally, rather than doubting their existence, I am still having a bit of trouble understanding how and why phenomena like white women’s tears arise. I am trying to feel the psychology behind it and I don’t think I’m quite there.

Also, I think sometimes I come across as presenting slippery slope or relativism arguments for purposes of absolution when it’s not what I’m trying to do. What I’m trying to do is understand how different systems are connecting, because I feel like to disrupt a system one needs to understand how it functions. I think frequently oppressed becomes oppressor. We see this repeatedly in history. So in myself rather than reclassifying myself as a victim to absolve me of anything, I’m actually trying to imagine how any oppression I’ve encountered then might be functional in turning me to oppressor. The purpose isn’t to excuse myself.

I've never got someone in trouble in this way, can't imagine why someone would want to, I can't think of any examples from my personal experience
This is what i mean. You may never have done it (I believe you because I have no reason not to) but that doesn't mean you can't if you wanted to. It’s there for the taking but decent people wouldn't use the opportunity. Also, you may not be able to imagine why anyone would but people do and sometimes for stupid reasons. That's why I said it isn't personal. That you don't do it doesn't mean doesn't mean others don't.

Taking examples from extreme racist behaviour such as the dog walking woman and taking that to be exemplary of all white women and we're supposed to feel guilty or ashamed is just BS.
No its not all white women and like i already said people shouldn't have to apologise for what they didn't do so I've not asked you to feel ashamed or guilty but such things happen a lot. You can't expect to see something not aimed at you just like a man can't expect to see everyday sexism aimed at women. Also if you have a problem with generalising all white women, do you also have a problem with generalising all men?

It's equally true that a POC can get a white person in trouble for crying racism and gain social media support, look at Jesse Smollet
I can agree with this but I dare to think this may be where class presents itself more 5han just race.

Gere, do you not have a moral compass already that tells you not to go around oppressing people?

What extra information are you getting here? I bet you already known not to touch people’s hair, not to get co-workers into trouble over trivia etc.

@TenaciousOnePointOne
No, could not find similar for U.K. I think it will be forthcoming as U.K. has added mandatory ethnicity gap reporting recently. Glad other posters found some information though...

inever Fair enough points, but I'm not saying these things don't happen, it's the building this up into a religion of absolutes that bothers me. I do see the accusations as applying to all white people, I'm not taking it personally, this is part of critical race theory. I think it would be extremely racist to take Jesse Smollett to exemplify how all POC play the race card and to therefore to inform a theory as to why white people should never trust them because they'll always be out to get you. Similarly, some silly cow in Central Park shouldn't be used to exemplify all white women. The 'potential' to behave in this way on account of skin colour is neither here nor there, I have the potential to commit many crimes. I also have the potential to wrongly accuse a man of rape, it doesn't mean that such a crime is common or that I'm ever going to do it, and to establish a theory that all women are guilty of this would be highly misogynistic.

Yes, I have posted the ONS ethnicity gap figures in a link above.

I missed the last thread, so this may have been covered there but what I feel is really missing from a UK rather than US analysis is the intersection with religion.

I grew up in Birmingham going to a school that was less than 50% white. People talking about outcomes for "BAME girls" would have been completely incapable of getting any kind of meaningful analysis done, as there was such a difference in outcomes for girls who were Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, African v Caribbean and also between the varying groups of wc/mc white girls, Catholic v protestant v Jewish girls etc.

We had a well meaning teacher talk to us about women's rights to education and pitched it at the South Asian girls in our class. The Indian girls were massively offended, they were daughters of doctors and dentists and expected to go to university whereas there were a number of white girls from religious families who were already being expected to stay home to look after younger siblings at 15.

It's equally true that a POC can get a white person in trouble for crying racism and gain social media support, look at Jesse Smollet

I also noticed you've not expressly mentioned its true a white woman can get a black person in trouble by using any of the mentioned means. You've only said you haven't seen it, you don't know why anyone would do it and even if people were to use "extreme cases", as you put it, it doesn't mean all white women. Yet, you've gone and expressly stated the opposite is "equally true" and I wonder why. Have you seen this beside the "extreme cases"? Can you imagine why someone would want to and can you think of any from your personal experiences? (All these are your rebuttals) So should I take your "equally true" to mean you think the white women thing is true or do you just want to use it to point a finger somewhere else?

@LibertyMole

There are plenty of racist white women and plenty of examples of women being complicit in institutional wrongdoing.

But that isn’t the same thing as white feminism, where examples are fairly thin on the ground.

^This. To me, white feminism isn’t white women being racist. And while some white women do try and derail discussions about racism into discussions about sexism...it’s the opposite thing that happening on this thread. The topic is white feminism, not white racist women.

White feminism exists, but it is often misused to silence and reprimand white feminists for their views. As an Asian woman, I see my role in regards to white feminism is to hold up a mirror for white women because I feel they often cannot even see or listen to themselves properly. It’s an inadvertent blind spot that exists because they move through life not experiencing what minority women experience. It’s not intentional or them being racist, it’s simply things that could never occur to them. Now, if white feminist do not listen to us, and do not validate and include what we show them in their feminist goals, then that feminism becomes white feminism.

Society, including women, is still racist in many ways and on many levels.

That's a demonstrable fact.

What's not demonstrable is how that connects with feminism. I've witnessed many racist incidents in my life, on one occasion I've witnessed physical violence. None of the acts were committed by people who identified as feminists.

In a Venn diagram, I'd think that people who think racism is a-ok and not socially shameful are broadly in the same category as people who think misogyny is a-ok and not socially shameful.

So I'm angry as fuck with racists, but not (usually) with feminists as my experience has been that these are different people.

I do have a moral compass, I hope. I don’t believe I’ve ever done those things you’ve mentioned and I can’t recall engaging in white tears. But I do still believe that people do it. I admitted a previous micro aggression where I had skirted past someone talking about racism, because I felt it was just so uncomfortable for others in the room, and that now I see why that wasn’t a good way to handle it. So I am open to the idea that I may be doing things wrong. I don’t hate myself for it. I think I’m generally trying to be a reasonable person in the world. I can think of at least one time when I spoke up and call out an example of
systemic racism as well. The strange thing about that was that I had no pushback - once someone said it, everyone immediately got behind making the suggested change, which is so interesting! But I also know in that situation, I as a white person, had to speak to a room of mostly white people where my colleague who was not white, felt she couldn’t say it. I don’t know what would have happened if it had to be her who said the same words. So I’m just trying to be aware. I think these dynamics are operating. I do see them but I’m sure I don’t always see all of them.

inever I hope I've perhaps already answered this with my post above:
"I think it would be extremely racist to take Jesse Smollett to exemplify how all POC play the race card and to therefore to inform a theory as to why white people should never trust them because they'll always be out to get you."

it doesn't mean that such a crime is common or that I'm ever going to do it, and to establish a theory that all women are guilty of this would be highly misogynistic

Who is saying this is all white women or that you'll do it? I agree that we all have the potential to do something but people are pointing this out as a problem, not pointing you out as one.

People who've lived this and see this everyday have said this is common. It happens, yet you, who hasn't seen it is adamant that it doesn't happen because you haven't seen it. Do you see the similarities between what you're doing and notallmen and men saying "it doesnt happen because we don't see it"?

Mine was @LibertyMole