Caitlyn Jenner OPPOSES trans girls competing in girls sport

[hm246]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9533463/Caitlyn-Jenner-says-OPPOSES-trans-girls-competing-girls-sport.html

@EmphaticPeriod

CJ was also fine about being called he last week too, whereas others might have gone on about being misgendered. “Don’t sweat it, Joy Behar. I’m not about cancel culture. I know where your heart is. California has bigger issues than pronouns.” They also were asked about genitalia by Brendan O'Carroll and didn't break a sweat.

Well that's a remarkably sensible attitude.

I think asking Caitlyn Jenner about genitalia isn't fair but her comment about California having bigger things to worry about than pronouns is a simple statement of fact.

We ask you to call for inclusion of trans women within cycling competitions without the
dehumanising medical requirement of testosterone monitoring. Alternatives to this system
are that testosterone levels are not measured for both cis and trans competitors, or that
trans women who want to compete in the women’s category provide proof of being on
testosterone suppressants.

Extract from Stonewall advice on completion of cycling consultation.

@NiceGerbil

The republicans are the ones bringing the bills to ban mixed sex sport. Caitlyn is a Republican and a pretty hard line one at that. Caitlyn also carried on membership of a men only golf club with the name Bruce on the application etc There's other stuff as well.

The fact that some right wing people/ religious people etc think sport should be single sex is not surprising.

It's good that CJ has said this in a way, I suspect they don't care much really and are looking to their political career. Saying to replican voters. I am trans, but my views match yours, they take precedence over my trans status.

The thing I find interesting, which is a complete side track!

Is that when a trans woman says something like this, many posters will refer to them as she. When they say things that are not welcome, they are a them.

I think I am consistent in using they them etc because my view about sex gender etc doesn't change if I like what someone on the internet says iyswim.

Does anyone who used she and would usually use they have a reason? I wonder if it's conscious or subconscious?

I am one of those who uses different pronouns according to the person and this is deliberate.

To me, the "old style" transsexuals always ASKED (rather than demanded) that their pronouns be respected. Many still do take this approach and I'm happy to oblige, especially when they show sympathy for women's feelings. So I will always use "she" in these instances.

If they obviously care nothing for women then I will use a name or "they/them".

I don't think of this as inconsistent - more as mutual respect. If someone's being respectful of women (and maybe getting stick from their own community for doing so) it seems very grudging to withhold their preferred pronoun

I also recognise that gendered pronouns are a language convention and not all languages even have them - if we were all Turkish the debate wouldn't arise!

Well she has gone up in my estimation, a bit of common sense at last.

I mean I'm a bit iffy about Caitlin Jenner because of issues raised earlier, but she's not wrong and as an elite athlete she recognises that. I remember watching an episode of I'm a Celebrity get me out of here when she was on it and I was struck by her still very powerful physique. I don't know ma y women in their 60s who look like that.

Someone ought to do a peer reviewed paper on all the differences between trans women and women. Analyse everything... DNA, muscle composition, hormone levels, emotion, psychology... every test possible. If there are no differences over a broad range of these people then fine. Of course there will be lots of differences... because biology.

Some of the comments on Twitter against CJ from the trans community are horrible. Nasty and mean.

I feel like with maya case and now this, we are on the cusp of realising that biology exists. Science is real. You can call yourself whatever you want but you cannot change science.

If we don’t recognise that biology exists and DNA cannot be switched like trans people want. I don’t want to live on a planet like that.

I think maybe a fair option here, is to create a third type and if you want to compete with other tabs people, go for it. I do not want my girls changing in a changing room with biological boys, or running in races with them.

Anyone that disagrees with CJ on this is insane.

@334bu

**We ask you to call for inclusion of trans women within cycling competitions without the dehumanising medical requirement of testosterone monitoring. Alternatives to this system are that testosterone levels are not measured for both cis and trans competitors, or that trans women who want to compete in the women’s category provide proof of being on testosterone suppressants.**

Extract from Stonewall advice on completion of cycling consultation.

Wtf?

I said that they would work this angle a while back and was told off for being a doom monger!

This must equally apply to male bodied non binary people too, right, or that will also be discriminatory.

The demand being made is this: male bodied people who have made no alterations to their physiology must be included in women’s sports on the grounds of fairness

I’ve really had it with tiptoeing round this silliness and pretending that the aim is not the destruction of the category of women’s sports. It is. Activists will not rest until women’s sports are opened up to any male bodied person who fancies it.

Well, I’m not having it. I will oppose this until my dying day, and I don’t give a shit If anyone calls me a bigot.

How can CJ not be trans? She has had more surgery than most I would imagine ? Unbelievable.

Someone ought to do a peer reviewed paper on all the differences between trans women and women. Analyse everything... DNA, muscle composition, hormone levels, emotion, psychology... every test possible. If there are no differences over a broad range of these people then fine. Of course there will be lots of differences... because biology.

Emma Hilton and Lundberg have done some work - links here (including Harvey's research):

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1368174222992961547

@Sophoclesthefox

Is the answer not to have three categories . Male , female and ? Oh I don’t know a word that would be completely inoffensive ? Open to whoever wanted to enter ? Freestylers ? Does not not indicate a group who have chosen their identities ?

I honestly don’t know the answer but surely there must be one ?

[quote Unsure33]@Sophoclesthefox

Is the answer not to have three categories . Male , female and ? Oh I don’t know a word that would be completely inoffensive ? Open to whoever wanted to enter ? Freestylers ? Does not not indicate a group who have chosen their identities ?

I honestly don’t know the answer but surely there must be one ?[/quote]
The word you're looking for is simply 'Open', I think. Only it would be likely to be dominated by blokes I suppose.

@2021ismyyear

Yes you have said a similar thing to me . I don’t know what the answer is but there has got to be one somewhere that respects everyone’s rights .
In a way this is not talking about segregation surely it indicates acceptance ?

@ErrolTheDragon

Yes you are correct . In fact open could apply to any age as well so yes open is a good description .

The word you're looking for is simply 'Open', I think. Only it would be likely to be dominated by blokes I suppose.
But would that matter, if it kept the male and female categories strictly male and female? I can't see how it wouldn't be a good thing.

Thanks for the papers! Very interesting. You are always going to get differences the other way round. I expect sally gunnel could still beat my husband in a race. But when we compare elites, men are always going to be faster and stronger than women overall.

Do men also have increased lung capacity? Do women perform worse when they are menstruating? Do men (that obviously don’t have periods) also get anemia as often? So many questions!

Jenner is a self-interested right-wing celebrebuplican who will say exactly what her focus group says she needs to say to appeal to the worst, most hateful, and most ignorant voters in the United States. She supports policies that are anti-woman (trans or not), anti-family, and racist. She's a fucking fascist just like the rest of her party.

This is who you choose to align with. You're being used and played as fools. It would be funny if it weren't so destructive and so very, very sad.

There's going to be a debate about it on Sky News at half past.

I just mentioned this to DH, he says it will be a short conversation

A debate, eh? Is that allowed?

Do men also have increased lung capacity? Do women perform worse when they are menstruating? Do men (that obviously don’t have periods) also get anemia as often? So many questions!

Yes. Substantially greater capacity and VO2 Max.

Yes, it can do - but, depending on the sport, the nature of elite training means a fair number of athletes lose their menstrual cycle (creates additional issues). Plus, the cycle increases vulnerability to particular types of injuries and their recovery times.

Men and women have different clinical thresholds for anaemia - it's not clear that women should automatically have a lower threshold. (Complicated for a variety of reasons.)

@Wroxie

Jenner is a self-interested right-wing celebrebuplican who will say exactly what her focus group says she needs to say to appeal to the worst, most hateful, and most ignorant voters in the United States. She supports policies that are anti-woman (trans or not), anti-family, and racist. She's a fucking fascist just like the rest of her party.

This is who you choose to align with. You're being used and played as fools. It would be funny if it weren't so destructive and so very, very sad.

We're not 'aligning with Jenner'. We're perhaps somewhat pleased that an Olympic athlete who won gold in an event only men could enter is able to put physical reality ahead of ideology.

“This is who you choose to align with.”

Believe it or not, not everyone takes a tribalistic view of the world. It’s possible to agree with Jenner on this point without being Team Republicans. Most people past secondary school age should be capable of individual thought.

I’m definitely not voting for Jenner

And nobody is playing me for anything. Anyone who really thinks about it will conclude that male bodies can’t be included in women’s sports, and the sooner we realise that yes, even people who you might think are awful fascists might think the same, the sooner we can stop debating all of this and letting it be so divisive.

unsure, it might help to think of women’s sport being a “protected” category, and like Errol says, the obvious answer is to have “Open” (men, transwomen, transmen on testosterone, non binary male people) and “protected” (women, transmen not using testoerone, non binary female people). That setup can also accommodate people with differences of sex development (intersex).

Wroxie is completely missing the point. I don’t agree with piers Morgan on every point but IN THIS CASE I agree with him. He is in agreement with CJ. It is possible to agree with people on certain things and not others.

Your trans panic has turned many of you into single issue voters who will support the very worst politicians based on their stance on trans issues (or withdraw your support from politicians who could actually make a difference to women, families, and people who aren't white millionaire, if you don't think they're anti-trans enough).

If this doesn't apply to you, then I'm not talking to you. But I know damn well it applies to a huge percentage of you. You are, indeed, being played as fools.

My hope re California is that whoever is standing for the Democrats (or maybe a centrist independent ) would note this as a point of basic common sense and decency towards women and girls which should not be the sole preserve of the right wingers in the US. It may well take a transwoman such as Jenner to point that out, as they've clearly not been listening to women and girls for quite a while,p.