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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya Forstater’s appeal - discussion thread 2

252 replies

Sophoclesthefox · 28/04/2021 16:40

I see the last thread filled up, but there might still be enough to discuss as a round up of the afternoon’s events to keep going into a second thread.

Thread one here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4228233-Maya-Forstaters-appeal-skeleton

OP posts:
Anovaneway · 28/04/2021 18:35

Er yes they are, embarrassing

So Trixie how does the law define gender?

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 18:41

I can't parse RMW's train of thought there, R0 - fully admit it might be just me though. The act says "male" and "female" but they've reworded to only talk about boy/girl/man/woman? And i don't understand what "working out who is in which sex" means?

No its not just you. I found Karon Monighan and Naomi Cunningham's statements clear.
No doubt some of the group of "trans pioneers in the legal profession" (which White identifies as) would seek to suggest that the definition of female and male sex is fluid.

JackieLavertysWeirdVoice · 28/04/2021 18:42

Please ignore derailing, especially where points have been explained over and over again.

JackieLavertysWeirdVoice · 28/04/2021 18:44

@R0wantrees

I can't parse RMW's train of thought there, R0 - fully admit it might be just me though. The act says "male" and "female" but they've reworded to only talk about boy/girl/man/woman? And i don't understand what "working out who is in which sex" means?

No its not just you. I found Karon Monighan and Naomi Cunningham's statements clear.
No doubt some of the group of "trans pioneers in the legal profession" (which White identifies as) would seek to suggest that the definition of female and male sex is fluid.

So White is arguing a personal belief, not a point of law?
Justforphoto · 28/04/2021 18:44

@Anovaneway

which is why a TW can legally be excluded from single sex services for women, GRC or not.

Only in certain circumstances. Where it can be shown to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

Surely it's being single sex that is the proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim so if something is single sex then trans people of the opposite natal sex are excluded. To be single sex you already need a legitimate aim.
RedDogsBeg · 28/04/2021 18:45

@Anovaneway exactly how many times do you need the following pointed out to you?:

EHRC submitted that the law treats sex as biological and binary and gender identity as social.

The GRA and EqA do not say what you think they say.

CardinalLolzy · 28/04/2021 18:46

I'm not sure what a "fluid" (i.e. changing? ) definition would look like, for anything - surely a definition needs some parameters for it to actually be a definition?

"to fix or lay down clearly and definitely; specify distinctly". Can you fix a fluid? I thought "nailing jelly to the wall" was a humorous idiom - was it meant to be serious?

midgedude · 28/04/2021 18:48

And that legitimate aim includes overcoming obstacles to women's participation in society

So single sex sport , single sex accommodation are legitimate

In fact most of the things that women get stressed about .. keeping males out of rape shelters , right down to more divisive things like keeping males off AWS are all perfectly legal

You can't face discrimination because if your gender identity, but you cannot assume the right to the rights attributed to people because of their sex

midgedude · 28/04/2021 18:49

Btw, I have been ( trying to ) read the equality act not just repeat what I have heard elsewhere or wish to be true

JustcameoutGC · 28/04/2021 18:49

So, in 2 months time, when the outcome is announced, we should all be able to meet up in our "sex is binary gender is social" t shirts, and raise a glass to Maya?

I am up for it. Who wants a day out?

GreyhoundG1rl · 28/04/2021 18:52

Me, me 👋

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 18:56

Maya Forstater
October 31 2020
A good question and a clear answer
(extract)
Providers have the right to restrict the use of spaces on the basis of sex, and exclude transgender people with or without a GRC if this is justified.
Kemi Badenoch, Equalities Minister, 2020

It is worth reflecting that she talked about “restricting the use of spaces” on the basis of sex.

How do you do this? A service provider sets a rule which applies to the space, based on sex: male or female only. And they communicate it.

Usually they do this with a simple pictogram like this:
(see screenshot)

This picture is not just a commonly understood cultural image, it is standardised internationally as part of ISO Standard 7001 . It explicitly means female facilities.

What does “if this is justified” mean? The Equality Act 2010 sets out common justifications for providing single sex services, including for reasons of ordinary, everyday bodily privacy and dignity.

Circumstances where a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex
Equality Act 2010 – Schedule 3, Paragraph 27 (6)

In order to provide a single-sex service you need to have clear rules. As the Minister’s wording makes clear the rules apply to the space, not to each individual differently." (continues)
a-question-of-consent.net/2020/10/31/a-good-question-and-a-clear-answer/

Contrary to some people's apparent beliefs the pictogram above is not indicative of dresscode whether using changing rooms at the local gym or Turkish Baths, supermarket or workplace toilets.

Maya Forstater’s appeal - discussion thread 2
JackieLavertysWeirdVoice · 28/04/2021 18:57

I can't even begin to imagine the stuff going on on Twitter right now.

Because I think the TRAs know how this is going to end in England & Wales.

Clymene · 28/04/2021 18:59

@JustcameoutGC

So, in 2 months time, when the outcome is announced, we should all be able to meet up in our "sex is binary gender is social" t shirts, and raise a glass to Maya?

I am up for it. Who wants a day out?

We should have a massive party Smile
ArabellaScott · 28/04/2021 18:59

@JustcameoutGC

So, in 2 months time, when the outcome is announced, we should all be able to meet up in our "sex is binary gender is social" t shirts, and raise a glass to Maya?

I am up for it. Who wants a day out?

Wine fuck, aye!
R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 19:01

Picnic at Hampstead Heath Women's Pond?
Wine

BoreOfWhabylon · 28/04/2021 19:02

@JackieLavertysWeirdVoice

I can't even begin to imagine the stuff going on on Twitter right now.

Because I think the TRAs know how this is going to end in England & Wales.

Yes, and efforts are likely to be redoubled in the interim so let's not rise to the bait.
butwhatcanwedo · 28/04/2021 19:02

I’m interested in what constitutes a ‘belief’. The argument broadly does not attempt to persuade that what Maya said are not beliefs but facts. Why not? Is that because there is no express legal protection for stating facts or that ‘belief’ in human rights legislation includes facts?

I haven’t been following today but on this thread we are discussing the legal definitions of man, woman, sex and gender. Have these legal definitions been considered in detail in this case?

Clymene · 28/04/2021 19:06

@R0wantrees

Picnic at Hampstead Heath Women's Pond? Wine
😍
Anovaneway · 28/04/2021 19:07

EHRC submitted that the law treats sex as biological and binary and gender identity as social.

A GRA changes your legal sex not your gender identity though. Anyway thanks for engaging those that have have been civil.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 28/04/2021 19:07

@R0wantrees

Picnic at Hampstead Heath Women's Pond? Wine
Or around the Millicent Fawcett sculpture…
Anovaneway · 28/04/2021 19:08

*GRC

SelfPortraitWithEels · 28/04/2021 19:08

As I understand it, part of the complexity of this case is that the former is true, butwhatcanwedo. As with the Holocaust denial stuff, in order for a belief or its opposite to be protected it must fulfill the Grainger criteria, which are about profundity/ sincerity of belief, its importance, etc - so a mere statement if fact isn't covered, and proving it's true isn't enough.

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 19:08

Sex Matters (Threadreader)

"Thank you for all the kind appreciation of our live tweeting of #MayaAppeal today (including offers of Veuve Cliquot). What we'd like best of all is if you'd head over to our website and sign up to the campaign.
And please talk to your friends, relatives and colleagues. Here's our 'elevator pitch' in thread form.

Sex matters to everyone. Girls and women need privacy from boys and men - in school and public toilets; in changing rooms at swimming pools, gyms and clothes shops.
Girls and women need to be able to ask for intimate healthcare procedures to be carried out by female doctors and nurses. Women in prison or under arrest need to be sure that if they are subjected to an intimate search, it will be carried out by a woman.
Women fleeing male violence need women-only spaces to feel safe. It’s neither safe nor fair to expect women to play sports against people with larger, stronger, faster male bodies.

It’s neither safe nor fair to imprison vulnerable women with male-bodied criminals. And even though female people pose little threat to men and boys, male people also deserve privacy and dignity when they are undressing and washing: single-sex spaces matter to everyone.

Male bodies are different from female bodies. So sex matters in medicine. Drugs work differently in men and women. Diseases occur at different rates and have different symptoms for men and women. Women need to be screened for cervical cancer; men for prostate cancer.

Inviting “people with a cervix” or “people with a prostate” for screening may cause men and women who have learning disabilities or who don't have English as their first language to miss out on crucial healthcare.

This should all be obvious. But some campaigners for trans rights want male-bodied people who identify as women to be treated as women in every single respect, even when that undermines the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls.

These campaigners have been astonishingly successful. Rapists are being held in women’s prisons. Police forces are saying that any male police officer who identifies as a woman is entitled to carry out intimate searches of female suspects.

Hospitals are refusing to guarantee same-sex care on request, even for intimate procedures. Schools and workplaces are making their toilets unisex in breach of legal requirements.

People who argue against all this are being slurred as bigots, bullied on social media, doxxed, hounded out of their jobs and even physically assaulted.

Sex Matters is a new organisation that is fighting back on behalf of everyone. It is not affiliated with any political party or position. It’s neither left nor right, neither socialist nor conservative. It’s for people of both sexes, all ages, and all religions or none.
It simply seeks to establish that sex matters in rules, laws, policies, language and culture, and to make it possible for people to say so without risk to their jobs and livelihoods.
There’s a lot of work to be done. We need to lobby for clarity on sex in law and institutions. We need to talk to MPs and peers, regulators, civil servants, public bodies, charities, employers, schools and universities.
We need to produce research, guidance and analysis to counter the flood of misinformation from trans activist organisations.
We need to support and mobilise ordinary people to speak up.
We need to hold organisations accountable: we need to write letters, make freedom of information requests, bring or support legal challenges.
Will you join us? Please go to sex-matters.org and sign up."

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1387407356116578304.html

Solidarity Gin

SelfPortraitWithEels · 28/04/2021 19:08

Not Mary Wollstonecraft? Wink

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