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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya Forstater’s appeal - discussion thread 2

252 replies

Sophoclesthefox · 28/04/2021 16:40

I see the last thread filled up, but there might still be enough to discuss as a round up of the afternoon’s events to keep going into a second thread.

Thread one here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4228233-Maya-Forstaters-appeal-skeleton

OP posts:
jhuizinga · 28/04/2021 17:13

The Respondents' case today made it very clear the extent of the power grab that gender ideologues have made on women's sex-based rights and the huge disparity there is between the consideration that proponents of the ideology believe should be given to those who want to be regarded as female and those who actually are female. It would be great if it helps open the eyes of people (especially our politicians) who until now have been able or willing to turn a blind eye to the implications of denying the reality of biological sex.

Sophoclesthefox · 28/04/2021 17:14

Anyway, I was really interested in the heavy reliance on the Bench Book in the EAT submission I linked above. . Any ideas why this was? I had understood that it’s relevance was in determining how a person is treated in court, by the judiciary etc, but it seems to have been extrapolated from that into a set of guiding principles for discussing gender issues in the workplace.

What gives with that? It’s not law. It’s guidance, created for a specific purpose. Why is it being cited as if it were precedent?

OP posts:
Anovaneway · 28/04/2021 17:16

Oh dear. I'm (almost) embarrassed for you.

So what exactly do you think a gender recognition certificate changes? On a birth certificate?

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 28/04/2021 17:17

Also the Bench Book was subject to some heavy criticism by female lawyers who felt some voices had been listened too and others ignored when it was drafted. A certain charity seemed quite involved.

Anovaneway · 28/04/2021 17:19

There can be situations where the right to single sex provision can override the protections for gender reassignment.

There can be yes. People who have legally changed sex have the protected characteristics of that acquired sex, and gender reassignment.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/04/2021 17:19

they are allowed to use and getting on with their lives

Whether they are in fact allowed to use them depends on the service provider. Women and girls should also be a consideration. Public sector equality duty apply to public sector organisations.

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 17:21

Anyway, I was really interested in the heavy reliance on the Bench Book in the EAT submission I linked above. . Any ideas why this was?
What gives with that? It’s not law. It’s guidance, created for a specific purpose. Why is it being cited as if it were precedent?

The Bench Book is also already under scrutiny and contested.

Law Gazette
Warning over transgender guidance to judges
By Melanie Newman24 February 2020
(extract)
"Guidance for judges on transgender issues has come under fire from solicitors in the wake of controversial court rulings. Feminist lawyers say the guidance, in the Equal Treatment Bench Book, fails to highlight conflicts between transgender and women’s rights.

The Bench Book advises that transgender defendants should be addressed by the pronouns of their choice and that ‘self-definition is the most important criteria’ (sic). At least one victim of violence by a transgender woman has been reprimanded in court for using male pronouns while describing the attack. Finding the defendant guilty, the judge refused the victim compensation, saying that when asked to refer to the defendant as ‘she’, the victim had done so with ‘bad grace’ or continued to use ‘he’.

Solicitor Harriet Wistrich, head of the Centre for Women’s Justice, has raised concerns about pronoun use in cases involving violence against women. ‘Here there is a conflict between the right of self-definition and the right of a victim, who may have been violated in the most horrendous way, to describe her material reality as she perceives it,’ she said. ‘Why is the victim’s right less important?’

The Bench Book also endorses the terms ‘cisgender’ or ‘cis’ as ‘often used to describe people whose gender identity corresponds to the sex assigned to them at birth’. The book does not mention that some women find the term ‘cis’ offensive. The Gazette understands that the term was also introduced to judges at a training session last year without any kind of warning as to its use.

Criminal defence barrister Allison Bailey of the LGB Alliance, which campaigns for the rights of same-sex attracted people, told the Gazette: ‘Judges have been led to believe that women do not mind being described as cisgender when it is regarded by many, myself included, as highly offensive. I do not have a gender and object to being redefined by men who wish to live as women. It is the most offensive power play.’ (continues)

"The Judicial College declined to identify the external experts and organisations that assist in training and formulation of policy. ‘It is not necessary or in the public interest to make public the names of all those involved in this work,’ it said.
www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/warning-over-transgender-guidance-to-judges/5103196.article

yourhairiswinterfire · 28/04/2021 17:22

So what exactly do you think a gender recognition certificate changes? On a birth certificate?

A certificate doesn't physically change someone's sex, which is why a TW can legally be excluded from single sex services for women, GRC or not.

Letsgetreadytocrumble · 28/04/2021 17:23

There can be yes. People who have legally changed sex have the protected characteristics of that acquired sex, and gender reassignment.

There are exemptions in the Equality Act which mean that even those with a GRC can be excluded from certain single sex provision in specific circumstances. These are the exemptions that Stonewall are currently campaigning to abolish, meaning that women would never be entitled to any single sex provision.

ArabellaScott · 28/04/2021 17:23

the law treats sex as biological and binary and gender identity as social

Have we got this on a T-shirt, yet?

JackieLavertysWeirdVoice · 28/04/2021 17:23

Could people contributing to the thread on this particular and important tribunal case do us all the courtesy of reading the submissions to the court, clearly linked to above, please?

Thank you.

@EmbarrassingAdmissions, thanks for the link to the Kuran book. It looks fascinating.

Helleofabore · 28/04/2021 17:23

@Anovaneway

There can be situations where the right to single sex provision can override the protections for gender reassignment.

There can be yes. People who have legally changed sex have the protected characteristics of that acquired sex, and gender reassignment.

There is room for exemptions and some are even named.

I am sure you know all this. I have seen explained time and time again. Often on the previous thread.

Helleofabore · 28/04/2021 17:23

@ArabellaScott

the law treats sex as biological and binary and gender identity as social

Have we got this on a T-shirt, yet?

No, but we need to do it.
ArabellaScott · 28/04/2021 17:24

People who have legally changed sex have the protected characteristics of that acquired sex, and gender reassignment.

They have the latter, not the former. It's not possible to change - or 'aquire' sex.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/04/2021 17:24

Just to point out that there are sex based exemptions to both the EA2010 and GRA 2004.

SelfPortraitWithEels · 28/04/2021 17:25

I wondered, Sophocles, whether it was because it gave the impression of legal authority without actually having been subject to rigorous examination, and thus bolstered the argument while still being basically woke opinion...

It may be a bit tangential but I was interested in the Holocaust denial thing. She was clearly using it as a way to dodge unbelief being privileged in the same way as belief, but it made me ponder... Is it true that belief in the Holocaust is protected? Given that something being the actual truth doesn't seem to fulfill Grainger on its own, I suspected that this might be some kind of sleight of hand. Anyone know anything more? Did belief in the Holocaust get tested against the same law?

Sophoclesthefox · 28/04/2021 17:25

@Anovaneway

Oh dear. I'm (almost) embarrassed for you.

So what exactly do you think a gender recognition certificate changes? On a birth certificate?

Its original function was to enable remarriage in the acquired gender, in order to avoid legalising same sex marriage.

This utility has now been eclipsed by same sex marriage becoming legal.

It’s a legal fiction, like when a company can be a legal person for some purposes. It doesn’t create a physical reality, you can’t set up Tesco for dates on Tinder, and take them home to meet your mum, just because in certain circumstances you can initiate an action against Tesco as a legal person.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 17:27

People who have legally changed sex have the protected characteristics of that acquired sex, and gender reassignment.

There have been only approximately 6000 GRCs issued since 2004.
The Equality Act 2010 draws distinction with single sex exceptions which allows those with a GRC born male to be excluded from female services/spaces in the same way those born male without a GRC are excluded.

Fieldoftheclothofgold · 28/04/2021 17:27

you can’t set up Tesco for dates on Tinder, and take them home to meet your mum,

That’s exclusionary, and hate speech.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/04/2021 17:27

It’s a legal fiction, like when a company can be a legal person for some purposes. It doesn’t create a physical reality, you can’t set up Tesco for dates on Tinder, and take them home to meet your mum, just because in certain circumstances you can initiate an action against Tesco as a legal person.

No and my favourite example, if I throw a brick through the window of my local Tesco I will not be prosecuted for actual or grievous bodily harm.

Fieldoftheclothofgold · 28/04/2021 17:28

It may be a bit tangential but I was interested in the Holocaust denial thing. She was clearly using it as a way to dodge unbelief being privileged in the same way as belief, but it made me ponder... Is it true that belief in the Holocaust is protected? Given that something being the actual truth doesn't seem to fulfill Grainger on its own, I suspected that this might be some kind of sleight of hand. Anyone know anything more? Did belief in the Holocaust get tested against the same law?

I expect it is.

Sophoclesthefox · 28/04/2021 17:29

@Fieldoftheclothofgold

you can’t set up Tesco for dates on Tinder, and take them home to meet your mum,

That’s exclusionary, and hate speech.

It’s very exclusionary of me. Apologies Grin

That’s interesting re the bench book, R0, and yes, eels, I wondered along similar lines...

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 28/04/2021 17:31

you can’t set up Tesco for dates on Tinder, and take them home to meet your mum

Disappointed. Mind you, I have had my eye on Waitrose for a while, so we'll see who gets the last laugh.

TheShadowyFeminist · 28/04/2021 17:31

EHRC submitted that the law treats sex as biological and binary and gender identity as social.

This was written by Karon Monaghan QC. This was her highly qualified legal opinion given on behalf of the EHRC, one of 2 interventions to support Maya's case. Karon Monaghan QC is a barrister at Matrix chambers, principally specialising in equality and human rights law. She was an adviser to the government's women and equality unit on the discrimination law review which preceded the Equality Act 2010

When KM is giving her professional & experienced legal opinion, as a leading QC in the field of discrimination law, having been a major contributor to the drafting & framing of the EA2010, and she says that "the law treats sex as biological and binary and gender identity as social" then a load of randoms posting nonsense on the internet saying otherwise really do show themselves up to be a bit dim.

ArabellaScott · 28/04/2021 17:32

Re Holocaust denial, this happened in early April:

www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/uk-sentences-antisemite-to-jail-for-holocaust-denial-for-first-time-663850

'The UK does not have any specific statute criminalizing Holocaust denial, but the Communications Act prohibits the transmission of messages or material via electronic communications networks that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing nature.'

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