‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

No but the strong message from this is a deep discomfort of black women pointing out that white women don't do well when it comes to really considering including listening to black women... As groups in feminism, is very obvious.

Upthread someone said feminism is for all women this is divisive.

Same as men say eg DV affects women and men, to focus on women is divisive.

Same same.

I've read the article again but am still at a total loss as to what I can do to combat my white feminism. This is why it reminds me of every day feminism. Because basically the advice is keep quiet and educate yourself.

Now, are white men being expected to do this? I doubt it very much.

I've no doubt there are plenty of feminists who are white and don't fully appreciate the privilege that affords them. I'm sure there are outright racist women who call themselves feminist. But I'm not going to STFU about feminist issues because I'm white. That benefits the patriarchy, not WOC.

Well said. It's not constructive, it's divisive. And as I pointed out quite early in the thread, Bustle is not a feminist publication, it's a sexist man's idea of a publication for women.

Gerbil, I’m asking genuinely where you’re seeing that.

I don’t feel qualified to speak for WOC so I don’t. I do feel (more) qualified to speak for women, so (sometimes) I do.

That doesn’t mean I don’t believe that racism is a thing.

I don't think anyone has said structural racism doesn't exist Gerbil

No, they haven't.

Oh I cross posted there. You’ve already said.

"Wow at this thread.

Some black people are successful so structural racism doesn't exist.

Some women are successful so structural sexism doesn't exist.

Some people who are disabled are successful to they have no structural challenges either."

I certainly haven't said any of those things, although I did refer to the recent Race and Ethnic Disparities Report which found that there is no institutional racism in the UK.

Perfectly happy to have that challenged, I wouldn't even say it's a 'view' I hold, just something relevant to the conversation. The OP only seems interested in talking about white women being promoted and then claiming it's for the good of all women, something which seems a bit obscure and that no-one else can recognise. Completely ready to listen but the OP isn't giving us anything.

No institutional racism in the UK say the government.

There's been a lot of discussion of that report, condemnation, a resignation, and points made about who was chosen to run it.

I don't agree that there is no structural racism in the UK.

No but the strong message from this is a deep discomfort of black women pointing out that white women don't do well when it comes to really considering including listening to black women... As groups in feminism, is very obvious.

We were asked, with very little context other than a shitty listicle, what we thought about the article and the term "white feminism". People gave their opinions. That's why they have focussed on it being an unhelpful term. It's often used to shut down discussion. Where there are issues, let's discuss those issues without slinging around unhelpful terms.

No but the strong message from this is a deep discomfort of black women pointing out that white women don't do well when it comes to really considering including listening to black women... As groups in feminism, is very obvious.

I don't think a toxic article about US feminists and race relations was intended to spark a rational discussion about how white feminists can better support black women. I would be interested in that alternative thread.

@NiceGerbil

No institutional racism in the UK say the government.

There's been a lot of discussion of that report, condemnation, a resignation, and points made about who was chosen to run it.

I don't agree that there is no structural racism in the UK.

Like I say, I'm perfectly open to having that challenged, but it's not racist to mention it.

The OP only seems interested in talking about white women being promoted and then claiming it's for the good of all women, something which seems a bit obscure and that no-one else can recognise.

Yes, and she did it on another thread before this one. I personally view any woman being promoted as a good thing for all women. Not the be all and end all, no, but positive for women and a gradual drip drip of change. If only white women and black men are being promoted and not block women, there is a clear issue which needs to be addressed, but it doesn't change the fact that more women in male dominated positions is a good thing for women as a sex class. That's my opinion, others are available.

don't think a toxic article about US feminists and race relations was intended to spark a rational discussion about how white feminists can better support black women. I would be interested in that alternative thread.

Me too.

I've just started why I'm no longer talking to white people about race which I'm finding really good and interesting and I'm only about 3 pages in! Don't know if you've read that.

For the other poster, I think having black women promoted (and therefore more visible, breaking the default etc etc) is good for women and for black people and of course that includes black women who get even more from that (as a thing that can be/ has been done etc) than the others.

Same with anything. Disability, different educational backgrounds, accents etc.

My industry is overwhelmingly white middle aged well educated often South East accent etc. Even mainly all in the same age group.

Any deviation from that norm is a massive step forward. It frees others up to do the same as someone else has taken the 'risk'. Both the recruiter and the employee tbf.

only white women and black men are being promoted and not block women

Black women! Stupid autocorrect

I've just started why I'm no longer talking to white people about race

It's a really interesting read and was definitely an eye opener for me.

@PlanDeRaccordement

And I think the term ‘white’ here is a shorthand for dominant social class and middle/upper class feminism.

No, I don’t agree white feminism is code for upper class feminism. It is what it says- white feminism. Saying that white feminism really refers to a different set of white women than yourself is a typical reflex defence I often hear from white women. That white feminism doesn’t apply to them because ...pick your intersectionality....they are lower class, or not dominant religion, or disabled, or LGBT, or foreign/not British white.

True, I meant in other countries which may have a totally different ethnic population

People are coming from different starting points. If you're new to considering the issues then maybe an US article by a student for a male-run publication might be enlightening.
But it's insulting rather than enlightening for women who have worked with small women's groups across the world; who have campaigned for years in the UK and who have worked with marginalised and deprived groups in the UK whose life expectancy is on a par with parts of Africa.
To be blunt, young US academic feminism is way behind when it comes to activism, to understanding and to knowledge of the history and reality of lives outwith the US.
And I'm not even going to start on the assumption that everyone here is white unless they stick a label on declaring otherwise. I'm always wary of groups that forward a labelling agenda. It shows a worrying lack of understanding of psychology and history.

Exactly the same as so many men when the topic is women's rights.
I disagree with this. All women are oppressed by men in every country in the world, and thus all women have a right to speak about that and be represented. Men are not oppressed by women, usually their disadvantages are on account of unfair social systems and toxic masculinity, but they often try to shut women down by talking about their disadvantages. I'm more than happy to hear about the OPs experiences and want to be supportive, I'm not trying to shut anyone down. When I'm told that I can't possibly experience racism or that white women = wealthy, I simply can't accept that, because it's not true and does a massive disservice to millions underprivileged women.

Women are oppressed by men and women. That is a part of intersectionality.

And I agree with the pp who said that the denial, defensiveness, ‘fem-splaining’ and language used is
“ exactly the same as so many men when the topic is women's rights.”

@Sociallydistancedcocktails

Women are oppressed by men and women. That is a part of intersectionality.

And I agree with the pp who said that the denial, defensiveness, ‘fem-splaining’ and language used is
“ exactly the same as so many men when the topic is women's rights.”

I'm not sure what you're after, OP. We're being told to listen and I'm listening, but you're not telling us anything specific so we can't offer any support. You're kind of just calling us a bunch of white wealthy stuck up bitches, there's not really anywhere to go from there, despite the fact you sound a lot more privileged than me. I agree that both men and women oppress women, but women don't oppress men, so the analogy you quoted is false. I would say the current LibFem trend of demonising any woman who doesn't go along with TWAW, for example, is part of that. This name-calling of 'white feminism' also.

'When I'm told that I can't possibly experience sexism or that men= wealthy, I simply can't accept that, because it's not true and does a massive disservice to millions underprivileged men.'

Plenty of men argue that they experience sexism. I say they're wrong. They keep saying it though.

Yes I think white feminism exists, although it’s not directly tied to the race of its proponents. Emma Watson epitomises white feminism, no matter what mantras she’s using at the moment.

White feminism is over-privileged, girl-boss, men first, sex and porn positive feminism. It ignores class and material reality and treats with disdain all the gains made by earlier feminists. It claims to be intersectional but the minute a woman of colour disagrees with them, the vitriol comes out. Those white women who talk about white feminism and claim to be against it are its biggest proponents.

A list of some of the people I most associate with white feminism:
Prof Sally Hines
Naomi Woolf
Emma Watson
Prof Alison Phipps
Jameela Jamil
Jo Grady (head of universities union)
Zahra Sultana MP
Nadia Whittome MP
Mhairi Black MP
Jo Swinson
Rebecca Long-Bailey
Lisa Nandy
Meghan Markle
Judith Butler
Margaret Atwood

Not all on the list are white but their feminism is of a certain type and it tends to center men rather than women.

Also Kimberle Crenshaw really wasn’t the first person to talk about intersections between sex and race but these people have an aversion to reading anything from the second wave so Crenshaw is as far back as they will go. Also unsure if Crenshaw really meant that intersectionality = men can be women.

If you think US male 'feminist' publications want to advance feminism or support women then you haven't been paying attention. Search out the feminists that they refuse to publish; the feminism that challenges corporate libfem positions; and the feminism that challenges you and calls you to action, to learn, to stand up.

Also unsure if Crenshaw really meant that intersectionality = men can be women.

I don't think she necessarily did, but she wouldn't be able to say she didn't now even if she wanted to.

I’m looking for a reflective discussion I suppose 😊

Not interested in name calling anyone. The language you are using is similar to what men use to shut women up.

Nor am I looking for ‘support’ although it was nice to hear from other woc that they have had similar experiences. So I don’t feel mine is an isolated case or that I am being over sensitive.. Although the fact that the top few searches in Google shows that this is quite a common thing.

Just musing really...