‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

It seems a very particular issue you are criticising OP. White women who have done well in their career 'virtue signaling' about their own success. Is that right?

Is this useful in a broader sense, or is this an issue you have with one or two specific women?

I'm at a bit of a loss what you want white feminists to do here - not talk about their career? Acknowledge their white privilege- what does this actually translate as in the world?

Feminism for me is useful when it can translate into action to help. Analysis can be useful. Evidence can be useful.

What do you think could be done to effect change? To improve things?

Sociallydistancedcocktails
"I’ve been marginalised, tokenised, talked over, patronised...and most often by white women who proclaim to be feminists"
You say people are denying your experiences, but until now you haven't described them. Many women here, myself included, have already expressed a belief in white privilege, and I would want to support and amplify the voices of WOC. It's not helpful to deny or ignore the experiences of poor, abused or disabled white women in the process though, that's what I object to.

Unfortunately you are providing no evidence or examples of this on these feminist boards

And I don't recognise your name and unless you stated in some other thread that you were POC ( because otherwise i could not know ) and putting a point from that perspective which then got ignored your moan doesn't stand up to observation

...and most often by white women who proclaim to be feminists.

There’s a real problem with this type of put-down. It stops “ordinary women” from identifying as feminist. It certainly stops me doing so in real life. I hear things like above and feel if I say out loud I’m a feminist then I am suddenly held to a standard I can’t meet. I’m an ordinary person, I haven’t got a degree in this, I’m not particularly well read on feminism and definitely not on race or disability rights. Frankly I’m scared to say I’m feminist because I’m just not good enough. And that’s why this talk is divisive.

@ArabellaScott, the article expresses it well. It is about checking privilege and seeing that what benefits me as a woman of a particular race and class may be actually oppressing other women.

And listening to others with different experiences.

This is a broader point, it is not limited to professional advancement. I just highlighted that as an example of intersectionality.

And I think the term ‘white’ here is a shorthand for dominant social class and middle/upper class feminism.

In different cultural contexts it translates to a different group of women, but the grabbing of advancement for a narrow group, patronising attitude, denial of privilege etc is the same

But we would like to listen to the different experiences we are not not being provided with any.

You feel marginalised and ignored ... you believe this is because of your racial features. We hear that clearly

What we are not hearing is the so what
You ask us to listen, and here we are. We are treating you with as much respect as the next person. You imply that's not enough.

But you are not saying what needs to be done or change . You can't say listen when we clearly are not ignoring you

And I think the term ‘white’ here is a shorthand for dominant social class and middle/upper class feminism.
This is what I object to, as it makes 'white' a fictional monolith of wealthy women. The UK does not look like that and this terminology silences and makes the experiences of millions of underprivileged women invisible. How about we just describe the issues at hand and listen to each other instead, focussing on how patriarchal structures disadvantage all women, albeit in different ways according to various factors. The focus on name-calling other women almost seems engineered in order to divide us.

@Sociallydistancedcocktails

Yes, and you would probably go wtf, if I said that my promotion is really to your benefit and indeed, to the benefit of all women

Have you an example of someone doing this? I don’t recognise it at all.

I recognise that we often see reports of ‘first woman’ whatever. (I think a lot of it is pretty lazy journalism tbh - they need to show they’re all over women’s equality, so write a brief first woman article, and because they need to show they’re all over all diversity, they include a quote about how it’s a shame the opportunity was missed to make it a woc.)

But I don’t recognise someone crowing about their own achievements as benefitting us all. (When in fact they probably do, but mostly to a very tiny degree indeed.)

I’ve been marginalised, tokenised, talked over, patronised...and most often by white women who proclaim to be feminists.

I'm interested to unpack this, because I'd like to know the context. Is this irl or online? I've mostly been talked over and patronised by men, so I want to understand more about your experiences.

OP, genuinely curious what you have done for WoC in your own profession & position?

And I think the term ‘white’ here is a shorthand for dominant social class and middle/upper class feminism.

No, I don’t agree white feminism is code for upper class feminism. It is what it says- white feminism. Saying that white feminism really refers to a different set of white women than yourself is a typical reflex defence I often hear from white women. That white feminism doesn’t apply to them because ...pick your intersectionality....they are lower class, or not dominant religion, or disabled, or LGBT, or foreign/not British white.

I don't share an environment with professional women of any race. I'm not talking over anyone in that context, because those women are explicitly not talking to me at all! We live in different worlds.

@Novelusername

And I think the term ‘white’ here is a shorthand for dominant social class and middle/upper class feminism. This is what I object to, as it makes 'white' a fictional monolith of wealthy women. The UK does not look like that and this terminology silences and makes the experiences of millions of underprivileged women invisible. How about we just describe the issues at hand and listen to each other instead, focussing on how patriarchal structures disadvantage all women, albeit in different ways according to various factors. The focus on name-calling other women almost seems engineered in order to divide us.

I agree with this.

I’ve been marginalised, tokenised, talked over, patronised...and most often by white women who proclaim to be feminists

so white men never do this to you? because honestly it comes across as 'white women are way worse than white men' which given my life experience of as a woman I struggle with. Ive been treated appallingly by some women but it pales into insignificance compared to how Ive been treated by men both individually and by men as a class

*By saying yourself, I was meaning hypothetical you, not you directly OP. I am not assuming your race. Just wanted to clarify that.

I'm not educated in feminism theory like the other posters, but I can respond to one of your questions. You ask what your promotion does for women. For this individual (white, middle class) feminist it would have done a lot. I work in a small, white, male dominated, elite industry. There are maybe 500 of us in Europe, of which there are no senior POCs of either sex. There are 3 senior women, all white, none with children. Even as a white, educated, middle-class woman, and I can clearly see that I don't belong. I'm about to quit and leave the field, leaving it that bit more white and male. This wastes 15 years of targeted government funded training. If you had been promoted ahead of me, I would have seen it was actually possible to follow this career with two intersecting disadvantages (female and not white) so maybe it would be possible for me (female and mother). I do admit that I would probably never have told you that. I might not even have ever spoken to you because I'd probably be terrified of you. I'd assume you were as hard as nails for having survived and got to where you were and wouldn't want to waste your time talking to some fawning little idiot. Especially because from my experience of being patronised and tokenised you would probably already have had loads of extra work dumped on you for equality committees and being the face of the industry and public appearances. I could maybe also understand if you hate it. Part of the reason I'm quitting is I can't bear the pressure of being a role model anymore.

I suppose it would have been a win for 'white feminism' because most of the women coming up would have been white and middle class. But it would have prised open, just slightly, one more part of the elite that forms the top level of society. And once there's a crack, hopefully it can be exploited by POC and people from working class backgrounds too.

Great post, squishy.

I’ve been marginalised, tokenised, talked over, patronised...and most often by white women who proclaim to be feminists.

Well, I believe you OP that this is true fact of your experience as i is similar to mine. I have thought on this phenomenon and I think there are three basic reasons for this:

First many people are self-centred and even if feminist find it hard to empathise with and imagine struggles that just do not apply to them. They, like all humans, tend to focus on a prioritise the feminist campaigns that affect them most. The “that could be me” is a powerful bias and not limited to any sex, race, age, etc. ( side thought: It is further worsened too by the etiquette of giving space and letting those with the lived experience speak up, so even if a person is very empathetic feminist if they haven’t personally experienced it, currently these people are silenced. So we hear nothing from white feminists. The ones that don’t care, don’t care, and ones that do are silenced. It’s similar to how male feminist allies are gagged. Giving space for our/other voices is an admirable aim, but I dont think the right balance has been found because in practice it has been divisive rather than the goal of inclusion)

Secondly, peoples social groups (even at work) tend to self segregate by sex. Women are more likely to have more female acquaintances and work mates in their social circle, than male ones. So the odds are in favour of any badness like that coming from a woman you know than a man you know.

Thirdly, in a white high majority country again the odds are that this person within a wider social circle will not only be a woman, but white.

Sociallydistancedcocktails
"Yes, and you would probably go wtf, if I said that my promotion is really to your benefit and indeed, to the benefit of all women"
Have you an example of someone doing this? I don’t recognise it at all.

Me neither, Kamala Harris is the only person who springs to mind, very much not a "white feminist". It sounds like a personal bugbear of the OP but I can't think of any examples of this at all. Perhaps because I haven't known any successful white female CEOs. Other female white politicians? I don't concern myself with if they're bigging themselves up, feminist issues that have a wider impact on society are of more concern to me, such as the prevalence of violent porn leading to increased sexual abuse. We're all ears, OP, but you're not giving us much apart from obscure hypothetical scenarios.

I've read the article again but am still at a total loss as to what I can do to combat my white feminism. This is why it reminds me of every day feminism. Because basically the advice is keep quiet and educate yourself.

Now, are white men being expected to do this? I doubt it very much.

I've no doubt there are plenty of feminists who are white and don't fully appreciate the privilege that affords them. I'm sure there are outright racist women who call themselves feminist. But I'm not going to STFU about feminist issues because I'm white. That benefits the patriarchy, not WOC.

I've read the article again but am still at a total loss as to what I can do to combat my white feminism. This is why it reminds me of every day feminism. Because basically the advice is keep quiet and educate yourself.

Yy, Quentin, it sounds to me very much like because you can’t do all the feminism, don’t do any of the feminism.

@QuentinBunbury

I've read the article again but am still at a total loss as to what I can do to combat my white feminism. This is why it reminds me of every day feminism. Because basically the advice is keep quiet and educate yourself.

Now, are white men being expected to do this? I doubt it very much.

I've no doubt there are plenty of feminists who are white and don't fully appreciate the privilege that affords them. I'm sure there are outright racist women who call themselves feminist. But I'm not going to STFU about feminist issues because I'm white. That benefits the patriarchy, not WOC.

It really is just a dressing down for outspoken women dressed up as woke activism.

I've just looked up the author of the article, Kyli Rodriguez-Caro. She's in the first year of doing a Bsc in Psychology at Northeastern University, Boston USA, which suggests she's very young and probably at least middle class. Did she have a white, British, underprivileged woman from a shithole town who has been violently and sexually abused in mind when she wrote this article, I wonder? Does she even know that women like me exist? Does she need to check her privilege, perhaps? Nothing against her personally, but it goes to show how reductive this kind of 'intersectional' thinking is, and how American narratives on race and race relations don't necessarily translate to other countries. Kyli describes herself as 'Latinx' a demographic that doesn't even exist in any significant numbers in the UK, so the perspective she's speaking from isn't inclusive of any common experience of British women, white or otherwise. I don't like being told to shut up on account of my skin colour by Americans who have no experience or knowledge of the situation in the UK, which is vastly different to the USA.

Wow at this thread.

Some black people are successful so structural racism doesn't exist.

Some women are successful so structural sexism doesn't exist.

Some people who are disabled are successful to they have no structural challenges either.

MN is terrible on racism. I've been really shocked. So many threads with nothing but defensive posts and essentially saying black people (in this case black women) shouldn't say xy or z as it's snoffair.

Exactly the same as so many men when the topic is women's rights.

And people can't or won't see it.

I don't think anyone has said structural racism doesn't exist Gerbil