‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

@NiceGerbil

'When I'm told that I can't possibly experience sexism or that men= wealthy, I simply can't accept that, because it's not true and does a massive disservice to millions underprivileged men.'

Plenty of men argue that they experience sexism. I say they're wrong. They keep saying it though.

You misquoted me, I said "When I'm told that I can't possibly experience racism or that white women = wealthy", I presume to sound like a MRA. It's true that there are underprivileged men and in particular working class boys do badly in school. These issues are not due to women oppressing them, however. All women of any ethnicity are oppressed by men, my point still stands that therefore all women are entitled to talk about their oppression. I'm a victim of a violent sex crime by a man of a different ethnicity who only targeted multiple white women. It was severely traumatising. The Indian woman who I challenged on this thread was claiming it's a lot worse for her than for me. It may well be true that she will be seen as having a lower status than me in her community overall, but when I'm also treated as a subhuman object to be freely assaulted then I'm hardly in a 'privileged' position and it's hardly very sensitive or helpful to silence me. I don't believe in the competitive nature of identity politics for this reason.

Institutional racism exists, black women and WOC have intersecting axes of oppression, one of which isn't shared with white women, white women don't face racism. The tax of race doesn't apply to me.

Privilege declaration done, which was pointless and had zero material impact on the world, I'm going to go back to doing feminism in women-focused areas, some projects in which are led by Black women and other WOC, and some of which aren't, and give my little bit of $ and time to what I can, which is sometimes pertinent to women who aren't white and sometimes pertinent to all women and at no point is only about whiteness.

I'm at the stage of not caring anymore if that's not good enough, or too white, whatever that means.

As far as I can tell

Intersectionality is interesting and leads to additional problems snd lots of people can recognise that even if they are not directly affected, and race, class , disability and many other issues are relevant here and all worthy of discussion

And yes some women won't get it and some women are racist , and some women are misogynistic, but again you are not telling me anything new , and some of them will think of themselves as feminists

I really don't know what you want out of this?

If you decide feminism is no good, start your own movement. If you want feminism to change , then work with other feminists.

Women telling men they are aweful doesn't change things . Just puts backs up and makes change harder

Not interested in name calling anyone. The language you are using is similar to what men use to shut women up.

Yes, that's the point about why people have an issue with being called "white feminists", simply for expressing their feminist views which centre women. Which many of us have been. We are commenting on the term as you framed it.

Although the fact that the top few searches in Google shows that this is quite a common thing.

The top searches in google also mostly return things about MTF trans people being murdered when you search about murdered women. Because they're not free of bias.

Privilege declaration done, which was pointless and had zero material impact on the world, I'm going to go back to doing feminism in women-focused areas, some projects in which are led by Black women and other WOC, and some of which aren't, and give my little bit of $ and time to what I can, which is sometimes pertinent to women who aren't white and sometimes pertinent to all women and at no point is only about whiteness.

This is the thing. My feminism is about women and girls. I'm a white woman, so obviously I bring my experience to the table, as any woman does. I fully support that feminism should consider all women's needs, and would be interested in practical solutions which we can make this happen. Not name calling and labels.

The language you are using is similar to what men use to shut women up.
Except I'm not, I'm saying I'm listening and ready to support you if you but you're not giving any examples to encourage that. Also, it sounds like you have a higher social status than me, like most LibFems, actually, so who's really silencing who?

Anyone who hasn't read 'why I'm not talking to white people any more' it's had at least 2 recs now so might be worth a gander.

@NiceGerbil

Anyone who hasn't read 'why I'm not talking to white people any more' it's had at least 2 recs now so might be worth a gander.

Thanks gerbil

I didn’t create the term. I struggled to articulate what I was feeling and google found a term for me, ‘white feminism’ . Reading the first few articles was eye opening and captured my experience to an extent.
And so I shared one (that was easy to skim, not heavy academic but said the same thing) to get other people’s thoughts.

(And yes to a pp, I think some women are in a position to oppress men. Their power derives from patriarchy and is used to keep men of a “lower” race/class down.)

That’s the point of intersectionality too.

White feminism is over-privileged, girl-boss, men first, sex and porn positive feminism. It ignores class and material reality and treats with disdain all the gains made by earlier feminists. It claims to be intersectional but the minute a woman of colour disagrees with them, the vitriol comes out. Those white women who talk about white feminism and claim to be against it are its biggest proponents.

I also agree with this. I've seen black and Asian women, as well as working class women, lesbian and intersex women and disabled women who care about women's rights written off as "white feminists"due to believing in biological sex and favouring am abolitionist approach to prostitution, even by pasty, privileged middle class white men.

Got the name a bit wrong oops

g.co/kgs/Y2qWYu

Google comes up with pdf etc I just bought it I think paying for something like this is the ethical thing to do.. didn't know books came like that I suppose I'm naive

Hum

I think there is a confusion here between class based issues and individual issues

Just because some women have power over men does not negate the fact that on average women don't

The see saw doesn't balance because one women is on the other side , it balances when sex no longer indicates /influences which side you are on

But repeating what others have said , if you can't articulate any problem beyond white feminists and race has held me back , we can't move forward

I don't really care about history except in how it teaches us to do better

For example , you think that race as well as sex has restricted your opportunity , in that case, should we agitate for data to be gathered that lets us examine to what extent sex, race and both affect someone's prospects, first to see if that's true and then assuming yes, do we can track the impact of changes snd societal nudges ? You

‘Plenty of men argue that they experience sexism. I say they're wrong. They keep saying it though.’

Men do experience sexism. What is the point of arguing with them that they don’t? How does pressing this ideological position that only women experience sexism and only minority ethnic groups experience racism actually help reduce issues for women and minority ethnic groups.

All it does is annoy and confuse people, especially as it doesn’t fit with the equality act.

The same with privilege checking. Not believing in the whole privilege thing doesn’t make someone sexist or racist. They just don’t believe in the same ideology.

think some women are in a position to oppress men.
www.google.com/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/oppression
a situation in which people are governed in an unfair and cruel way and prevented from having opportunities and freedom

How exactly do women oppress men?
Historically POC and women have been oppressed so society can exploit them for economic gain.

I can't think of a single example where people have been oppressed for being male, let alone one where women are doing the oppressing.

Honestly. Sometimes I think we forget what "oppression" actually means. It isn't a feeling.

Do you think the abuse FGM activist Hibo Wardere and other women like Jana Cornel received for campaigning against Female Genital Mutilation, and refusing to change her words because mainly white trans activists and their mainly white allies didn't approve of her using sex based terms, was an example of "white feminism"?

Honestly. Sometimes I think we forget what "oppression" actually means. It isn't a feeling.

Privilege is only a useful concept when talking about structural oppression. Otherwise it descends into meaningless point scoring. If you have a car, do you have "having a car privilege"? In some places not having a car is fine or a minor inconvenience, in others it would mean that you can't participate in public life easily.

I think because the USA and the UK have the same first language there is far too much inclination to regard them as similar countries.

Having lived in both they really aren't. They have very different cultures, different histories, different emphasis on religion, on class and race.

Articles academic or otherwise that accurately portray one countries situation with regards to women aren't necessarily going to be relevant in the other.

If they had different first languages I don't think people would actually see that many similarities.

So I am always doubtful about anything which is meant to be equally valid in both countries.

Men don't experience sexism which is structural

The examples men have given me IRL of sexism directed at them haven't been anything that convinced me tbh.

On sites like this it's usual things like child custody after splitting that are used (family courts are sexist against men).

There are no structures in place that disadvantage (materially, restricting opportunities etc) all men as a group because they are men when compared to women afaik.

The problem with saying ok society is sexist against men and women is the next step is always it's a people issue not a woman issue and then somehow what the men are interested in becomes the priority with everyone else helping them get it.

@NiceGerbil

Anyone who hasn't read 'why I'm not talking to white people any more' it's had at least 2 recs now so might be worth a gander.

I'll give it a hard 'no' rec, if that helps. Started it, a steady stream of personal anecdote, history of twitter spats, with apparently no historical or cultural depth. Abandoned it pretty quickly. Read like a blog post that got spun into a book.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Privilege declaration done, which was pointless and had zero material impact on the world, I'm going to go back to doing feminism in women-focused areas, some projects in which are led by Black women and other WOC, and some of which aren't, and give my little bit of $ and time to what I can, which is sometimes pertinent to women who aren't white and sometimes pertinent to all women and at no point is only about whiteness.

This is the thing. My feminism is about women and girls. I'm a white woman, so obviously I bring my experience to the table, as any woman does. I fully support that feminism should consider all women's needs, and would be interested in practical solutions which we can make this happen. Not name calling and labels.

My local MP (AU) is an Indigenous woman. I help hand out how to vote cards for her at each election.

As little difference as that makes, it makes a million times more difference than me sitting on social media talking about my white privilege, mainly to other white women.

Same as helping to put together birth kits for women in Timor Leste, or volunteer tutoring for refugee kids...drops in the ocean of women and girls' disadvantage, but one drop more than endless privilege declarations.

I hope that its true that all feminists have more in common than what divides us, though of course class and race must come into the mix. I also think that in wealthier countries, we cant really identify with women and girls in some other cultures (FGM and forced marriages of young girls comes to mind). One of the things in the Dysphoria documentary (part 4) was more of a focus on a worldwide view which I found very useful and I think often gets ignored.

Read like a blog post that got spun into a book.

I seem to remember it maybe was?

ArabellaScott

NiceGerbil

Anyone who hasn't read 'why I'm not talking to white people any more' it's had at least 2 recs now so might be worth a gander

I'll give it a hard 'no' rec, if that helps. Started it, a steady stream of personal anecdote, history of twitter spats, with apparently no historical or cultural depth. Abandoned it pretty quickly. Read like a blog post that got spun into a book

No from me. If Enni Lodge doesn't want to talk to me I'm very happy to oblige by ignoring her.

@Sociallydistancedcocktails

Intersectionality means that women can be oppressed but can also be oppressors

It is not divide and rule, but a recognition of a vector of identities where we can lack certain opportunities but also benefit from certain privileges

Certain feminists can be quite grabby, asking for more for themselves based on their privilege (and usually benefitting from the male patriarchy) And then virtue signal that their power is really in the interests of all women. I have to roll my eyes 👀

I just don't see the utility of this way of thinking, or this language.

I mean at a most basic level, we all know this right? You can have a shit life with no advantages for all kinds of reasons, and you can be a prick who takes advantage of everyone as well. Everyone is dealt a hand that we had nothing to do with putting together, for good or ill. Everyone has a will to power and a capacity for selfishness.

Talking about these specific vectors of advantage and disadvantage is limited. The "intersect". And that often is in much more discrete groups than race politics will admit. Plus there are a plethora of advantages and disadvantages that individuals and families have - being intellectually gifted, athletic, good looking, strong willed, having a loving family. Or being slow, having a disability, being socially awkward, mental illness, prone to addiction.

I am in agreement that people can claim things as wins on the basis of being underprivaleged when that's not what is happening. The movement of professional women into the workforce, with good jobs in sectors amenable to people with different body types, and husbands often working in similar types of jobs. Able to employ nannies or good childcare, and making a huge boost to family income. That was a huge class based win for those families. Not so much for families where they already both worked to get by, or the work wasn't so easily amenable to most women or childbearing (mining, fishing etc,) where the increased salary didn't pay for great childcare. The women often doing the childcare for the professional women. They were not financially ahead and more often having to choose to spend time away from their kids in what could be jobs, not careers.

The rhetoric about this being a win for women is galling in that situation.

But I don't see how intersectionality really makes that any clearer. And it's still pushed under the rug, even with intersectionality being all the rage.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Read like a blog post that got spun into a book.

I seem to remember it maybe was?

that would explain quite a lot.