‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

‘Precisely. For centuries Britain has just been minding its own business on it's tiny little island just doing its own thing.’

Of course that isn’t the case. But we are not currently a superpower, and America is.

For me it isn't about small minded prejudice which is obviously found in every country.
Or accepting the very general concept that the main grouping in any country organizes the systems in that country to maximize their own benefit.

So much as understanding that the literature written in the USA considering issues of whiteness is rooted in such a specific historical and cultural setting as to have limited value outside that setting.

Which doesn't mean that there isn't literature based in UK concepts of race that wouldn't be more relevant to discuss just that USA literature isn't relevant.

It’s about understanding how contemporary imperialism and colonisation has worked since the 1960s.

It is far less based on invasion and more based on interventions that overtake local cultures and force them into adopting American consumer models where American values are to be adopted as the norm, with military and state backing.

It has completely transformed the world.

*76% of British citizens have passports it should have said, not 71%.

The thing is I just don't buy that the U.S and UK are so different from each other as to render any comparison a farce. It's really neither here nor there that they think every English person is something from Mary Poppins and we all sit in our castles with decaying teeth drinking tea all day with the Queen.

@VladmirsPoutine

The thing is I just don't buy that the U.S and UK are so different from each other as to render any comparison a farce. It's really neither here nor there that they think every English person is something from Mary Poppins and we all sit in our castles with decaying teeth drinking tea all day with the Queen.

But ignorance about our culture is not the only difference, is it? I listed a long list of differences that were just off the top of my head relevant to race relations a few pages ago, stark differences. I won't bore everyone by listing them again, we'll just have to agree to disagree, but I fail to see how issues such as those that fundamentally form the roots of the discourse can be ignored.

I will say that when I went to live in America, having been familiar with American culture my entire life, I was still in a state of culture shock as to how very different it was.

I am not really interested in what the American public think of the British.

I do care that America forces it’s cultural dominance on to other countries - blocking trade with New Zealand if it didn’t stop subsiding its own film industry, blocking trade with South Korea unless they halved their Korean film production, preventing public broadcasting across much of Africa through CIA infiltration.

It isn’t an accident that much of the world is receiving American cultural ideas. It is heavily promoted by the American state. I don’t blame the American people for that, nor blame them for not having a passport.

But I do reject the idea that we just used American cultural ideas as the norm, particularly when American ideas about ‘whiteness’ and ‘privilege’ have been adopted and promoted by hugely wealthy and powerful American corporations like Twitter and Facebook, while doing nothing about their platforms are being used to organise genocides in other countries.

The cultural stereotypes were raised as a way of highlighting that there isn't a high level of cultural and historical understanding by people in the USA of people in the UK.

The concept of whiteness discussed by authors in the USA and referenced on this thread a lot is rooted in cultural and historical understanding of their country.

The cultural and historical backgrounds of the two countries are very different and actually not particularly well understood by their respective peoples.

Although it could be argued that the USA having been the most recent superpower has had the widest spread of their cultural ideas recently it doesn't make these ideas relevant elsewhere.

I have to agree with other posters that the differences between the USA and the UK are significant.

As I said before I think it is the fact we both have English as a first language that obscures these differences, combined with the USA cultural superpower domination.

People assume a similarity that simply doesn't exist.

Could it be that the differences between the middle classes of both countries are lesser than those of the working classes? I'd imagine that might be the case, considering our very different welfare, healthcare, pensions, working hours, employment law, minimum wage etc. Maybe when comparing middle class lifestyles and culture the differences are less stark (and no, I'm not being prejudiced against the middle classes, before someone pops up with their snarky little emoji by way of a 'counter argument').

And apologies, I don’t wish to sound harsh towards posters who are discussing cultural differences between the two populations. I know it is important and relevant to the thread.

I just wanted to make it clear that I do not blame American people for the behaviour of their corporations and government.

Seeing as those pushing these discourses are USUALLY middle class, this might be why the stark differences are overlooked.

Yes, I agree that probably the middle class have quite a few similarities.

I actually found the middle class in US more diverse. Loads of mixed race and from every country imaginable. But this might just be my experience.

OP, if you really think that what white feminism is a middle class/bourgeoisie feminism, that gets talked about on FWR all the time. Just not called white feminism, and not particularly centred on it being racial - because it often isn't.

If you want to talk about that stuff just read the threads regularly and it will come up.

Just watched this, which might be of interest. Don't be fooled by the clickbait title, the conversation is a lot more nuanced than it might suggest:

I agree, I think the term bourgeoisie feminism is probably more accurate and better than the term white feminism.

It captures what I think as middle class values which may not be in the interests of other women. And may directly or indirectly be detrimental to women outside of bourgeois group.

And this group may look different in say, China or Turkey or India for example

And I say this as a middle class woman. I find my feminist sisters in my country of origin have a bit of a blind spot too on how they/we benefit from and perpetuate the power structures

On data collection, the forms I've filled in offer multiple options for white.

Government recommend

'White
English, Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish or British
Irish
Gypsy or Irish Traveller
Any other White background'

I'm not sure what the point is about this and not sure if this helps! It does demonstrate that our govt segment into different groups on this.

I think that there may be other options on the stuff I get from the council as we have loads of people here from all over the world (London) who may have specific challenges etc they want to track.

I have no idea what happens in USA.

I suppose that point is that for the UK all 'white' categories are not lumped in as one.

I wonder if those categories will change in the near future, NiceGerbil. The largest white immigrant group to the UK is Polish - another difference to the USA, I'd imagine they'd be unaware of this and how Poles can be discriminated against. I would have thought if this data is used for equality and diversity monitoring it would be important for Poles to have their own category. I feel a restricted by putting 'White British' because my recent ancestry is more complicated, but putting 'White Other' feels too anonymous and might suggest I was born outside the UK or don't consider myself as British. These categories will never be able to fully reflect reality, though, they're approximate.

On the privilege of wealth etc.

Of course it exists.

There have been examples on the thread though of things which affect all women. Irrespective of anything else. Incidence etc does vary between groups but all women are stuffed.

The example I gave was sex offences.

In the other countries thing. In eg Saudi, or Afghanistan under the taleban. All women were subject and still are to constraints to their freedom. In situations like that, women can and should come together. And they do. Because it's shit and it's universal.

A couple of things came to mind as well about the privilege of wealth/ class protecting you etc and being ignorant of or not caring about other women.

These are pretty random but like I say, came to mind.

Princesses imprisoned, kidnapped, ?tortured, ? one or both dead

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-56085734

Their position didn't protect them of the patriarchal control that is in UAE.

Saudi 13 women activists arrested for driving. The woman reported on most, reports of torture.
It doesn't say their class etc but the woman in the press graduated from university of British Columbia, so I think she's probably not from a very deprived background.

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-55467414

I think there's a place for different groups advocating for /focusing on different needs and a place for a whole group to come together and say fuck this.

The way that this conversation has gone mainly on social media seems intent on preventing the second, driving animosity. The term divide and rule always springs to mind.

A recent mass female protest example- Poland.

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55866162

I know the discussion has moved on, but I found the approach of the Berkely professor stigmatising slave-owning women very depressing. As though it didn't matter that those women wren't allowed to have a profession, wouldn't have been taught any skills,, and might have had no means to support themselves outside of prostitution if they found themselves on their own. No, somehow that situation was their fault.

The reality is that people operate within the social/moral/economic system they are born into, and very few have the education, privilege or strength of character to see outside of it. It's therefore not surprising that black people also owned slaves in the U.S.: this is a whole book discussing the situation of black slave owners in just one state: www.amazon.co.uk/Black-Slaveowners-Masters-Carolina-1790-1860/dp/0786469315?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

(As an aside, I became aware of this fact through reading Barbara Hambly's excellent fictional detective series with a black protagonist in New Orleans in the 1830s - very recommended!)

I often feel that too many people, including historians, struggle to see the past as it really was, believing that if they had lived back then, they would have somehow been exempt from subscribing to the prevailing injustices and beliefs.

I often feel that too many people, including historians, struggle to see the past as it really was, believing that if they had lived back then, they would have somehow been exempt from subscribing to the prevailing injustices and beliefs.

I agree with this.

The point of intersectionality is that a person can be a victim but at the same time benefit from other privileges.

I would be hesitant in attributing victimhood across all aspects of ones life. It is a bit odd to say that women cannot be responsible for any of their actions because they are oppressed. Slavery was awful, and the selling of men, women and children is not more culturally palatable when it was done by women