‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

Not RTFT

I hate this topic has become so kind of veered off from the original points.

As a white English woman who was born with relative privilege I can never know what it's like to be not white, to grow up in cultures and areas I have never been to let alone grown up with all the language and culture subsumed into me, or to not have the opportunities I've had.

I can listen and try to understand etc but it's not the same as living it day in day out.

I do know about certain types of disability as I have one from birth and I know that while others might try to understand, be sympathetic, all too often offer terrible advice or say really silly things, no people just don't get it.

I'm a woman and a feminist and I know that many on MN get pissed off when a bloke wades in and is sure he gets it and talks a load of drivel and won't accept he's got no idea.

So with race no I don't know. I can try to understand and empathise but no I'm never going to get it, not really understand, feel it.

The idea of intersectionality has been corrupted, online anyway, into an us and them/ oppression Olympics thing.

The fact that the term white feminism is used liberally on social media about women who disagree with whatever to shut them up (even if they're black!) has turned it all into meaningless words for many.

And that's really not good because it was all a good thing, intersectionality.

The way that many white women react to stuff as well makes me feel very much like the knee jerk reaction of loads of men to feminist arguments.

It's all at a class level. The discarding of the critique in countries like UK of feminists who are white by black women saying you're missing a load of stuff is not a personal insult. It's a class level observation.

It doesn't bother me at all. I mean it doesn't get my back up.

If it's used as it should be- having it thrown around at anyone female who says xyz gets my back up because it devalues the whole thing.

Started reading and see OP didn't want to get into 'the trans issue'.

That's inevitable though as the feminist language has been appropriated and used against women.

If your feminism is intersectional then you include all women- disabled women, black women, trans women, etc

The accusation is that feminism has historically not seen black women as women and trans women are in the same situation now.

All that stuff.

It's racist, it's an argument that is globally and historically ignorant. And it's drivel really.

Feminism has existed all over the world for ever. It may not have been called that but it happened. Women fought against their oppression. And when it was called feminism, clearly there have been and are feminist orgs all over the world.

The sort of imposing of US history attitudes etc across the net as the story for... Everyone? English speakers? Not sure. Is just odd.

And ironically not having any intention of understanding why people from other cultures will be ???? Is the opposite of intersectional !

@safeornotsafe

I'm from a white working class background but have a more neutral accent. People often think I'm posh even though there is a much posher accent in this area spoken by the real posh.

This notion that white women are all rich has made getting help for domestic violence more difficult. A few years ago I was desperate to leave but had nowhere to go after years of financial abuse. The only suitable refuge/temporary accommodation for my needs was only for people who identified as being from minority ethnic communities. I actually quality through grandparent (they told me this would count) but I look white and knew I'd stand out and seen as a fraud.

I'm really pleased specialist support is being provided in my area for minority ethnic communities, but I wish services offered appropriate rehousing options for others too. Being white and having an accent mistakenly marking me out as affluent doesn't mean I am actually affluent. It doesn't mean I'm not suffering violence and other abuse including economic.

I was a bit scared and felt more defeated hearing an interview with Sadiq Khan talking about tackling violence against women and girls. He suggested middle class white women experience domestic abuse differently and he wanted to focus on more services specifically for minority ethnic groups. What does he think is different about being beaten, raped, psychologically abused, controlled - and experiencing the financial abuse that makes the woman's class irrelevant (if he thinks they have the means to escape, he doesn't understand what financial abuse does).

Its really important to have specialised services for minority ethnic women, but I hope he's not planning to ignore the need for more services and more funding for all other survivors.

He only very briefly mentioned disability. It didn't give me any hope he was planning to set up any specialised services for disabled women. Disabled women of all race and skin colour are about twice as likely to suffer abuse and for longer periods. I wish he'd also think of older women of all backgrounds who need specialist services set up.

Disability is so often ignored. It's not ok.

Intersectionality means that women can be oppressed but can also be oppressors

It is not divide and rule, but a recognition of a vector of identities where we can lack certain opportunities but also benefit from certain privileges

Certain feminists can be quite grabby, asking for more for themselves based on their privilege (and usually benefitting from the male patriarchy) And then virtue signal that their power is really in the interests of all women. I have to roll my eyes 👀

And to clarify, I have no issues with the grabby aspect. I’m all for people advancing their interests. Men do it all the time.

It is the virtue signalling and lack of recognition of privilege that

You’re rich and you’re black. Round my way, almost everyone is white and most of them are dirt poor. In the area of my town I was born in, the average house price is 60k and average life expectancy is nine years below the national average. I’m absolutely certain your life is more privileged. Get off your high horse and stop being so self righteous.

It’s the virus signalling and lack of recognition of privilege that I

Virtue!

How am I being righteous? You are just reiterating my point.

And I’m a woc, which is not the same as black. And pardon the pun, let’s not be so black and white about this?

Why am I supposed to be concerned about promotional prospects for woc when most women in my area work for minimum wage +- £2? If your point is that I’m not prioritising your concerns, you’re absolutely right.

Yes, and you would probably go wtf, if I said that my promotion is really to your benefit and indeed, to the benefit of all women

The thing is, "second-wave" feminists were in fact already debating this (and there were many black feminist writers in the debate such as bell hooks, Angela Davies, Audre Lorde) throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s. In their writings the idea of "intersectionality" was already there, coming out of a Marxist view of the intersections of structural class oppression, but it was kind of an obvious point to be made on the way to more radical social change.

This!!!!

I think when talking about "white privilege" or "white feminism" it's important to be specific with examples and to not make sweeping generalisations. I have no doubt that white privilege exists, however, there are many other factors other than race that can disadvantage a woman - class, disability etc. Take, for example a WOC from a supportive middle-class family in the South-East, who went to a good school and is in a stable marriage and has a good career. I would argue that overall such a woman would have greater privilege than most white women in the UK, although she would always have to face racial discrimination and on those specific occasions it would be justified to talk about white privilege. I pointed out upthread how it is incorrect to state that white women can't experience racism, they absolutely can, and furthermore they're not allowed to talk about it. This silence around the subject goes on to reinforce the idea that white women don't experience racism. It's deeply distressing to be told up thread that I can't understand what racism feels like, when I've been in fear of my life and been violently sexually assaulted and discriminated against several times on account of the immutable characteristics of my race, sex and class.
The government's recent report revealed that there is no institutional racism in the UK, but other factors can play a larger role - class, geography etc. For me, as a white working class girl in a Northern town, in my comprehensive school I was invisible, despite often gaining top grades. Invisible apart from the times I was wrongly accused of some playground crime or another, something that didn't happen to middle class friends. I also come from a violent home, which led to long term mental health issues and a series of abusive relationships. I have several degrees and am currently unemployed. I have no problem with white privilege being brought up when there is a specific issue at stake, but to boldly claim it as something I possess that leads me to have a comparatively cushy life compared to any WOC is quite simply bollocks. Ultimately, all this division does not help women, but I'm sure certain men would be very happy about it.

I guess the other problem with this discussion is it is really white feminist and all others whereas usually you find that the POC is not one amorphous group but contains some distinctly different problems

And yes OP if you managed to get promotion in an area where female promotion was rare and as a result managed to change your organisation to be a bit more open to diversity then you would have achieved a double whammy of helping all women and Women OC and possibly all POC

I think the trouble I am having with this thread is it's a lot of you don't care, you have privileges, listen to me, and all I am hearing is that

It would be far more helpful to have that moan if you had started with something more constructive or focussed and people had ignored it or moved it into something less intersectional or such . As it is, it's a winge

*class isn't an immutable characteristic, although it can feel that way.

@midgedude

I guess the other problem with this discussion is it is really white feminist and all others whereas usually you find that the POC is not one amorphous group but contains some distinctly different problems

And yes OP if you managed to get promotion in an area where female promotion was rare and as a result managed to change your organisation to be a bit more open to diversity then you would have achieved a double whammy of helping all women and Women OC and possibly all POC

What if I have made it as a top investment banker, in part because I went to private school, have a stable family and a good network of connections and work with people who are like me and share my ethnicity (imagine an overseas bank in UK).

So I could turn around to and tell a working class person in UK, hey, my promotion is your win. You know we are both wimmin (of course ignoring that decisions by financial institutions like the one that promoted me may have contributed to her inequality and poverty)

I am giving a hypothetical, but it gets to the ridiculousness of the white feminist argument that somehow their individual advancement (based in part on privilege and perhaps elements of oppression ) is somehow universally beneficial

Sociallydistancedcocktails
"I am giving a hypothetical, but it gets to the ridiculousness of the white feminist argument that somehow their individual advancement (based in part on privilege and perhaps elements of oppression ) is somehow universally beneficial"
I agree with this, in the same way women making it as Instagram influencers, pole dancers, makeup gurus or black female rappers going on about their wet pussys doesn't do anything for me as a woman either. I'm confused as to why you're calling this "white feminism" though. I would call it LibFem, who are the ones who call women like me a "white feminist" as a slur. Also, from the examples I've given, many of these women doing what you mentioned are WOC, not white.

*It's also a lot easier to pretend that every feminist before approximately 2000 was a rich white woman writing "white feminism" than actually go back and read them and actually think about what they are saying.

I note that just about any strand of thought propagated by men doesn't get the same treatment. "I don't want to read that white Marxism?" Nope. "White ecology"? Nope. It's pretty much only feminism that gets the put down that conveniently excuses people from actually reading it*

This in spades.

What feminist activity are you involved in Sociallydistancedcocktails? Aside from scolding "white feminists" on the internet.

So I could turn around to and tell a working class person in UK, hey, my promotion is your win.
That would be very ego centric.
A feminist perspective would be "I wouldn't have this promotion without the work of all the feminists before me and it gives me an opportunity to use my power to make things better for women where I can"

I have RTFT. Worth it for cakedays incredible post. But the bustle article is a steaming pile of horse manure, in the tradition of Everyday Feminism. "Women,
Feel your guilt and self flagellate"

Oh, and if you want to see a real life example of what I mean, look at what JK Rowling does with her money.

It does all help

If there are three barriers in your way and one is removed , leading also to a weakening of others, that's less for you to do yourself

What's more, people who helped remove one barrier get upset when others moan that they didn't do it all , surely your experience show its bloody hard

Are you quite young? The slowness of change can come as a shock , but as I get older I recognise how hard it is to change society, each stage does take generations

Just another racial slur meant to divide.

The race to find out who is the most disadvantaged and silencing everyone else is just not a net positive to society.

“But the bustle article is a steaming pile of horse manure, in the tradition of Everyday Feminism. "Women,
Feel your guilt and self flagellate"”

It resonated for me as a woman of colour. And as I scan the feminist threads, I often say bingo as I see the same language as men use to deflect on privilege.

Defensiveness...denial...Not all of us... etc

I’ve been marginalised, tokenised, talked over, patronised...and most often by white women who proclaim to be feminists. 🤷‍♀️