‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

Nor me Gerbil.

What do you think OP, quaggars etc?

For me what happened in Rotherham was that

The girls were considered low value and not reliable and off the rails etc because they were mostly poorer and because they were girls mostly (but not all) over 12 which way too much of society considers as adult, essentially, when it comes to sex.

Classism and misogyny.

The men had a blind eye turned primarily because they were men and the girls were well, no good anyway so why bother. My feeling is that the idea that didn't want to touch it because of race relations has done truth but is largely an excuse.

The police treatment of women and children especially female ones who are victims of sexual crime are shit everywhere.

For me the focus is on a nationwide utter failing of our whole justice system when it comes to sex offences against women and girls.

Look at warboys. Those victims were white, they just have been pretty wealthy etc to be out drinking in town and getting a black cab home. They cost a bomb. Yet they were turned away, laughed at, no crimed etc etc etc.

The circs are different and some of the layers different but at the root is. Institutional misogyny. Women / girls not believed or protected. Men left to offend over and over and over.

The gangs are still going in northern areas. Everyone knows it. Nothing is done. Why not. Because society does not care about those girls.

I think it was classism, misogyny and a fear of race relation tensions.
I don't think that the race relations was entirely about not upsetting the bame community part it seemed to be also about not stoking white violence.
Obviously bame communities are not responsible for the behavior of white communities.

These things are rarely simple one dimensional events which is why one dimensional theories don't work.

Yes that's fair.

In the end though whether it's these women or those girls with whatever characteristics. When it's about sex offences. The women and girls do not get anywhere with the justice system except in exceptional circs.

And the one commonality amongst the perpetrators is that they are male.

Yes it does

And class feminism

Being white abs middle class you are already one step ahead in being treated equally by society

I certainly agree that when it comes to sex offenses the perpetrators are overwhelmingly adult males and it is very hard for their victims to get justice regardless of their ethnicity, class or age ( I actually haven't noticed it being easy for male children to get any justice either)

I think people are missing my point

I'm not asking what happened. I'm asking how academic race theories, popular in London, the US and these boards, apply to white women in the metropolitan counties of the north of England

Why is it
1.The girls and women are not considered to be the victims of extremely serious RACIALLY aggravated organised crime.
2.Because they are white, they are considered to have racial 'privilege', and can also cry "white tears' to gain more of this white privilege in certain situations

What racial privilege do they have over someone, of any race, from the same socioeconomic background in the same country

I think you need OP to answer this.

I don't think current commentators think that these girls did have racial privilege in this situation or that white tears is valid in the discussion.

I did attend several training days/conferences where several informed sources said that these them also sexually abused vulnerable girls in their own communities.

These girls received no justice because their abuse was hidden from authorities by the communities.
So those girls were very vulnerable because they had limited community support and the limited wider society support that sexually abused people get.

However this isn't a situation that fits well into American race theory.

OhWhyNot I would say getting treated better than other women. Not being treated equally.

As noted above the women who warboys attacked must have had decent money. Black cabs cost an absolute fortune. My mum always laughed when they got them on EastEnders because you just don't.

The only people I know who get them are paying on expenses.

And look how they were treated.

Anyway that's a long winded way to say that while aspects of race class etc will mean different attitudes, in the end the situation is SO BAD that essentially no women/ girls are getting any kind of decent response.

So at that point surely we say. Segmenting on this is going to end up with arguments about who needs most focus etc as per what we see. This is about ALL women and it's way more impactful if women of all sorts are shouting rather than one group here or there.

I know this might seem to exemplify the white feminism criticised on this thread.

But if ALL women and girls are being failed then fragmenting our activism and anger feels counterintuitive.

'popular in London'

I'm from London! They're not popular with me!

There are what 4 million women or something here? Many of whom will have strong feelings about protecting women and girls.

I don't think comparing girls here and girls there is the answer? What's the point? Girls are being raped and abused by men all over the country. Hands are wrung and 'lessons learned' but nothing changes. Bottom line, misogyny.

My police are the met and they have been proven in just the last couple of decades to be corrupt, murderers, liars, unethical, racist, misogynist, incompetent. I mean not every single officer (before someone jumps on to shout at me) but pretty widely and not infrequently.

Maybe the key with the police is regional? They all have different populations, ways of policing, priorities, risks etc etc. As individual forces I suspect they all have similarly shit but not quite the same cultures.

So maybe that's a key to this. Not to look at the perpetrators and victims, but the specific groups let of/ failed in the different areas.

The key is to look at the specific cultural context in which exploitation and abuse is happening.

It is pretty overwhelming to think of the level of misogyny, abuse and exploitation out there.

I don't think comparing girls here and girls there is the answer? What's the point

Their white skin is the point. Not only did it not give them privilege, their white skin made them a target of organised crime, involving forced prostitution for trafficking, gang rape, GBH, kidnap and torture, in some cases murder, and corruption in local govenrment covered it up and aided with the gangs. London led media and academia too. Parliament too

*sided with

The key is to look at the specific cultural context in which exploitation and abuse is happening.

That isn't allowed where I live I'm afraid

Flax meadow, the vast majority of people understand that it is a racially aggravated crime. The law supports that white people can be victims of racial discrimination, genocide and persecution based on race, ethnicity etc. The UN and international law also support that. There are plenty of cases where the culturally dominant groups are the targets of persecution - Rwanda for a start.

You are never going to get people who believe in critical race theory to believe that white people can experience racism.

Liberty and flax,

Do you feel that what happened and carries on to happen up there is mostly a result of the races of the perpetrators and victims? And that that specific combination and grooming type is the one all activists should focus on etc?

That the race aspect is more than the misogyny/ class aspect and therefore a different problem to tackle than how forces around the country and courts etc are handling sexual violence by other sorts of men against other sorts of girls?

I'm just inserested because you seem to both reject the idea that woman and girls across the board are being failed when it comes to sexual violence and the perpetrators are pretty much all men. And so it needs to be addressed as a piece. Have I understood your points correctly?

I do think that women and girls are being failed across the board.

I am really concerned about the impact that porn is having on violence carried out by young white men, for example.

There is a great deal of valuable feminist knowledge about the underlying structures common to all forms of abuse and exploitation of women.

There are also specific cultural contexts to look at. I wouldn’t feel a need to rank individual issues, but there is certainly one about how we protect girls in care and one about the exploitation of women in organised crime.

I think feminists should focus their activism on where they think they can make a difference.

‘That the race aspect is more than the misogyny/ class aspect and therefore a different problem to tackle than how forces around the country and courts etc are handling sexual violence by other sorts of men against other sorts of girls?’

Police failures nationally are more important than any local issue. For a starting point, there is no mandatory training for a police officer on domestic violence and a great deal more, because there is so little money. So if you actually wanted it dealt with better you would actually have to increase police funding.

The misogyny aspect is more important than the race aspect, IMO. Not globally, where there are issues like genocide. But within the U.K., there isn’t a racial equivalent of the level of violence, killing and sexual abuse and exploitation of women and girls.

I'm sorry but it's really upsetting seeing the posts about London. I'm white and a Londoner. I don't feel privileged when if you need help and support to leave domestic violence, victim support is 2 or 3 day wait for help except in London when it's up to 6 weeks. There's also a specific support service that might have helped my specific needs but I was told it's only for women who identified as bame. I'm sorry to say bame because I know people don't like the term but the word they used. I want people who are minorities to get extra help because they have to deal with racism as well but it should be as well as support for everyone else and not instead of. It feels doubly upsetting when there isn't the support because of being in London and then people saying things are better there. I don't understand why everyone thinks everyone in London who is white is rich or middle class.

I am looking back over my posts to see where I have caused confusion, Gerbil.

I think it might be where I said the key was cultural context. I don’t mean that the specific cultural context causes the abuse and exploitation.

I meant that if you wanted to look at how the risks were manifesting, you would consider the cultural context, while also being aware that some tools are useful across all scenarios - recognising patterns of coercion and manipulation for example.

So in London, as the poster above pointed out, the cultural context is a higher risk caused by a 6 week housing wait.

There's no housing in London mostly just unsafe hostel places. The 6 week wait is just to have a support worker.

I was working as a child protection social worker in a town close to Rotherham when this first started seeping into professionals awareness.

A large meeting was held to discuss concerns about girls in care particularly being sexually exploited, lots of people attended, social workers, police, residential care workers, eows, all sorts.

After the first meeting no more were held despite clear plans being made to do so, senior council officials were concerned it would inflame local racial tensions.
In this case between the taxi driving Kurdish community and the working class white community.

Much later when the horrors of Rotherham came out I remembered that meeting and the way it was firmly shut down.

I know that these men also abused woman and girls in their own communities and that most sexual abuse is carried out by white men.

But in the area I worked in senior council leadership was more concerned about race relations than vulnerable white working class girls on that occasion.

It is another reason to question the white tears narrative being relevant in the UK.

YY. It's a situation I recognise working in that kind of social service environment briefly in the noughties.

Do you feel that what happened and carries on to happen up there is mostly a result of the races of the perpetrators and victims?

Yes because they are racially aggravated crimes and should be seen as that and prosecuted as that. There are other factors, to do with ideology that I am not allowed to discuss, here or on these boards and also because I might have the police knocking on my door for being 'phobic' or something

And that that specific combination and grooming type is the one all activists should focus on etc?

Focus more yes, to understand it better and to prevent it. It's the shocking scale of it that people outside the area don't understand. It's just too mind blowing I think for people to grasp properly

That the race aspect is more than the misogyny/ class aspect and therefore a different problem to tackle than how forces around the country and courts etc are handling sexual violence by other sorts of men against other sorts of girls?

I think they should be prosecuted as racially aggravated crimes because it would carry a higher sentence and send a message out to the wider area

For me a lot of this about legal issues. West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester consistently have the highest serious crimes rates in the UK. We have very serious organsised crime. Not just the trafficking of girls, forced prostitution etc of girls and women but also heroin and cocaine/crack cocaine. Its centred here. The 'gangs', or organised crime here is not so much teenagers fighting over territory, as I believe it often is in London. It is wide networks of multi generational crime across the north and beyond, to parts of Europe, Africa and especially to the Indian subcontinent.

Its hard to describe but it feels as if what is happening is always ignored. It's about awareness and recognition of what is happening.

I'm just inserested because you seem to both reject the idea that woman and girls across the board are being failed when it comes to sexual violence and the perpetrators are pretty much all men.

I have not said that

And so it needs to be addressed as a piece. Have I understood your points correctly?

What I'm talking about is unique in some ways I suppose. It's different to London. More oppressive and oppressive in a number of ways. Not being able to discuss it, being wary all the time of local corruption, council, police, politics.

It's a strange mish mash of the Labour party abandoning the working class and becoming London middle class progressives, who people feel let down by, and then this other heavy backward male dominated thing creeping in

safeornotsafe
There's no housing in London mostly just unsafe hostel places. The 6 week wait is just to have a support worker.

Same here

Liberty
I think feminists should focus their activism on where they think they can make a difference.

Would feminists set up a protest outside a community centre that bars girls and women? Women are denied a lot spaces here in some areas

That's something to fight for then. Raise awareness etc.

The original refuges were set up by women, because there was no provision. They fund raised etc to do it.

Over the years orgs could bid for govt funding etc and so there is an idea they are provided as a service by councils etc. That's not quite how it works.

Different people have different needs and risks. Those who saw a gap in what had been set up, worked to fund and set up specific services. They too could bid for govt funding etc.

A lot of these places as I understand it are still small things run by people who are often volunteers and they still fund raise.

The argument that if they are well supported by the community they serve they should change their remit and water down their focus is not right imo.

It's also an argument for opening existing shelters up to anyone. This is happening in Brighton etc, the grass roots orgs are being defunded as they don't cater to men. The contracts (money) are going to much larger orgs who often seem to have no experience in the sector.

The whole thing is in trouble.

I do think that specific services are important. A woman who has little grasp of English and is kept very much under control at home, has no idea about what the law is, how to access services etc has very specific needs and a lot of outreach will need to be done.

There is also the point that like it or not, plenty of people are racist. And if you have a service started by, run by, and provided for, people if a certain group who have in the past been overlooked etc. To open it up to all comes with the large risk that the group it was started for will not feel comfortable accessing it.

Grass roots services set up by people who are passionate and have seen an area that is being failed, usually that they are a part of etc, is good.

The root cause is defunding combined with an increase in DV.

Not that minority groups are being given extra stuff. Any stuff they have, has been fought for.

Of course I am sorry about the lack of support. Are you out now? Relationships board has loads of posters who know a lot and will try to help.