‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

You seem to be demanding complete agreement with every list you plop down, anything less is 'defensive' or 'racist', yet simultaneously asking us to 'discuss' these lists. I don't have to blindly accept everything a WOC says just because it's a WOC saying it. Treating someone with respect and as an equal involves considering what they have to say with the same amount of scrutiny that you would apply to everyone else. If you can't handle people discussing what you have asked to be discussed then perhaps go find an echo chamber to go shout into somewhere.

Atie- the context would have been good!

Can you tell me what 'people who identify with whiteness' means in the context of the list that follows?

Yes, I think context, examples would help me understand that list better. I am wondering how 8 interacts with 3. In my conceptualising, to be a white abolitionist (changing institutions and refusing to allow whiteness to reassert itself) requires some kind of power and leadership. For a white person to assume this role also fulfils the criteria for white privilege (critical of supremacy, but invested in white rule), because their occupation of that role has excluded a black person from occupying it.
I guess I’m wondering whether one can actually become an abolitionist, because it will always be from a position of privilege. They seem inextricably linked, one can’t be 8 (or even 7) without also being 3.

ATie I found an abstract- is this the piece you are referring to?

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Ethnic and Racial Studies
Volume 30, 2007 - Issue 4: Racist Futures
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Original Articles
Racialized modernity: An analytics of white mythologies
Barnor Hesse
Pages 643-663 | Published online: 12 Jun 2007
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doi.org/10.1080/01419870701356064
Abstract
This article is located in parentheses between two quotations from Derrida's reflections on white mythologies, defined here as the ‘rhetoric of modernity’. It re-conceptualizes race by interrogating its elision in contemporary social and political thought where discussions of modernity routinely ignore colonial and racial formations. It discusses a commentary by Jurgen Habermas on Hegel's discourse of modernity, which is used heuristically to illustrate the systematic elisions of race in contemporary theoretical discussions of modernity. Reading various juxtapositions between the two, it argues Habermas's erasure of distinctly colonial/racial themes in Hegel's concept of modernity, can be used to develop an analytics of racialized modernity, against white mythologies, which understands race beyond corporeality as signifying colonial distinctions between assemblages of ‘Europeanness’ and ‘non-Europeanness’. Building on developments in race/modernity studies it argues for the importance of conceptualizing race without any residual reliance on a biological referent to guarantee the object of critique.'

The full paper is paywalled.

Given the intro it's interesting his conclusion was condensed into such a straightforward list. Do you have any links to critique of it etc? It sounds interesting.

Also it would be really good if you could just tell me what is meant by 'people who identifies with whiteness' means. It's been posted on the thread and this is a chat board so expecting people to go off and find non paywalled papers off the back of a 8 bullet pic seems a bit off.

It's been posted so the person who posted it should be able to explain it a bit I'd have thought!

"... How does this list make the white peoples feel?

theculturecraft.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/tumblr_mq5hqu45lk1s948iuo1_1280.jpg"

well, ATieLikeRichardGere.. you want the honest answer? I can't answer for all white people, as we're not some homogenous blob, but me?

I wouldn't wipe my arse on that list. I think it's a bullshit list, and I find it really funny that the author's surname is, unfortunately, HESSE. Reminds me of somebody... hmmm... Hermann? I think if I did a 'black identity' list like that, I'd be thought of as a white supremacist...

You seem to be demanding complete agreement with every list you plop down, anything less is 'defensive' or 'racist', yet simultaneously asking us to 'discuss' these lists. I don't have to blindly accept everything a WOC says just because it's a WOC saying it. Treating someone with respect and as an equal involves considering what they have to say with the same amount of scrutiny that you would apply to everyone else. If you can't handle people discussing what you have asked to be discussed then perhaps go find an echo chamber to go shout into somewhere.

This.

Misogynists can be racist too:

https://twitter.com/bluskyeallison/status/1388230992935235585?s=21

I’m not an expert on that list by Prof Hesse by any means. I don’t think it’s from the paper on racialized modernity. You can listen to an interview with him here: m.soundcloud.com/myriam-francois-27072150/we-need-to-talk-about-whiteness-with-prof-barnor-hesse?in=%2Fmyriam-francois-27072150%2Fsets%2Fwe-need-to-talk-about

Agree that it’s hard to read that list as a white person and feel good.

As to “people who identify with whiteness” - anyone that would put white on a census? Thinks they are white? Feels they are treated as white? Says “I am white”? I agree it could mean different things. Obviously whiteness itself is a social construct. The list of people included as per census data is not even the same here vs the USA I don’t think. It’s not hard to come up with scenarios where it’s tough to straightforwardly answer the question of if someone is white, such as this curious incident, because it is in fact a social construct www.npr.org/2020/02/09/803809670/why-labeling-antonio-banderas-a-person-of-color-triggers-such-a-backlash?t=1619948032067 and more recently perhaps the events involving Hilaria Baldwin where she explained that “there are a lot of white people in Europe”!
And Hesse’s list itself allows POC to be included at some point. So, yeah, I think we could debate what that means.

I don’t feel anything about that list other than a sense of failure that I can’t understand the mind of the person who created it.

If we were talking about the behaviour of guards in a gulag or concentration camp, or slavers, or societies entirely run on slavery, the categories still wouldn’t make any sense to me. They just don’t match up at all with any ordinary psychological understanding of how people behave (or anthropological as that is what it seems to be aiming at).

Which is why I come back again to feeling this is a religion. It feels more like they are talking about heretics, apostates, non believers, the non elect, the unenlightened or similar.

That Hilaria Baldwin thing where she pretended to be Spanish was totally bizarre but also comical.

Lists such as that are quite antagonistic. Whenever I've read or seen white people having to talk about their place in 'structural whiteness' it's been quite painful.

Interesting article about Antonio Banderas, ATieLikeRichardGere, another example of American cultural imperialism that I haven't seen before. I suppose, despite living below the breadline for most of my life, I would be labelled a 'WASP', which shows you how irrelevant imported American theories on race are. You only have to look at how often the less travelled (the majority) of Americans automatically assume anyone with a British accent is either a stuck-up, pompous action movie baddie or an 18th century chimney sweep to see how little insight they have into British culture. It's one of the reasons 'Love Island' was so popular over there, they were in shock that British people have a range of accents and aren't all from some sort of Evelyn Waugh novel.

Sweeping generalisations and prejudice against Americans 🙄

I’ve lived in both, and people are more similar than different.

A bit of an aside, but I'm always struck by Saturday Night Live and how much of its humour relies on lazy stereotypes of other nationalities. I'm not easily offended so much as a bit baffled as to why it's meant to be funny. I suppose, as someone living in Europe and has travelled around a bit, I don't see the stereotypes used as in any way ringing true, so there's nothing to laugh at. Take a look at this clip about the Irish being violent, drinking, having lives revolving around being Catholic and being inbred - can you imagine this being made in Britain?! This is one of the most popular shows in the states.

@Sociallydistancedcocktails

Sweeping generalisations and prejudice against Americans 🙄

I’ve lived in both, and people are more similar than different.

Sociallydistancedcocktails I've lived in both too, in a majority black city and had an American partner. I've provided plenty of examples as to how our countries are radically different. Again, all you have by way of a counter argument is an accusation of prejudice and a snarky little emoji. Well done!

@ allNovelusername I think that to be true of most 'comedy'. As in the lowest common denominator. SNL is widely considered shit. In the UK at least though it didn't age well Little Britain was incredibly popular and managed to demonise pretty much everyone that didn't fit into a particular mould. Jokes like these are really bottom barrel.

I have also lived in both places and while it is a generalization to say that USA citizens are not well informed about the cultural and social structures of the UK it isn't untrue.
To be fair a diet of Harry Potter, the Crown and Mary Poppins wouldn't give anyone the most rounded picture.

We live in a major multi ethnic city in the USA, my dc's English accent is commented on a lot, they are often asked to repeat things for the pleasure of the listener.
DH who also has English accent gets similar and snatches of Mary Poppins sung at him.
As a Scot I'm asked how long I have spoken English and told at tourist attractions that leaflets in other languages are available, much to the amusement of my family.

People are people and have been similar in the countries we have lived in. But the cultural and historical context they grow up and live in does matter. It impacts how the world is viewed and how people see their place in the world.

The issue of identifying as Hispanic rather that White is a clear cultural difference. You would need to understand the history of the Americas for this to make sense.

Although while feminists, crying or not are not responsible for any of this.

Also, if you learn to read more carefully, you might notice the hedging language I used in my statements to avoid making generalisations. I've included to them below in caps, just to make it absolutely clear for you.
"You only have to look at how often the less travelled (THE MAJORITY) of Americans..."
The following article states 40% of Americans have passports, compared to 71% of British. I'd imagine in the majority of cases, in the States foreign travel includes nothing more than crossing the border to Canada or Mexico, if only because to go further afield would be so much more expensive, and Americans generally are entitled to fewer holidays off work. I've nothing against Americans, facts are facts.

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42586638

Small minded prejudice is everywhere whether middle Ametica or little England.

We just tend to find the other’s shortcomings visible while our own prejudices seem to be normalised. It is human nature I guess.

Every country has different historical context and I intersectionality plays out a bit differently. But the underlying concept of being both disadvantaged while also being privileged, and oppression by both men AND women of the dominant social and and middle class group is quite widely applicable.

The major difference is that America is a culturally imperialist superpower and Britain is not.

Every country in the world knows more about America than America knows about other countries, because America is the culturally dominant country.

How you be promoting ideas of privilege and oppression and not understand that?

Sociallydistancedcocktails
I wouldn't disagree with anything you've said there, it's a shame the rest of your posts haven't shown a similar amount of nuance, it might actually have facilitated an important conversation.

The major difference is that America is a culturally imperialist superpower and Britain is not.

Precisely. For centuries Britain has just been minding its own business on it's tiny little island just doing its own thing.

@VladmirsPoutine

The major difference is that America is a culturally imperialist superpower and Britain is not.

Precisely. For centuries Britain has just been minding its own business on it's tiny little island just doing its own thing.

🤣 Yes, I have to agree there, but we're still culturally very different and American models imported wholesale don't apply.