‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

@Flaxmeadow

I don't think comparing girls here and girls there is the answer? What's the point

Their white skin is the point. Not only did it not give them privilege, their white skin made them a target of organised crime, involving forced prostitution for trafficking, gang rape, GBH, kidnap and torture, in some cases murder, and corruption in local govenrment covered it up and aided with the gangs. London led media and academia too. Parliament too

I think the thing is that really, while it can be the case that being white can be an advantage, in a different situation, even in the same country or city, or for the same person, it could be a disadvantage. And I don't mean neutral, I mean actually disadvantage you in relation to a situation or the larger society.

And you could make a similar statement about not being white - there are situations where it can advantage you over others, even if in other ways it doesn't.

I think people feel this instinctively if they've lived it and it's one of the reasons they react against the whole hierarchy idea. If sometimes it inverts or rearranges, simple rankings won't reflect that.

On the whole UK society is not structurally racist against white people, it is structurally racist against non white people.

I agree that this doesn’t mean that people who are racialised as white never get poor treatment linked to that. I know some people push that idea but I think it’s a fairly extremist position and hard to defend. I did say previously in the thread that, not in the UK, I think my appearance, stereotypes about people who look like me, has been a factor in sexual harassment and violence I’ve experienced. So I can believe this happening to someone else. We all know that there are concepts like “white trash”. The existence of this issue doesn’t take away from racism linked to white supremacy. Actually if you trace it historically it appears to be part of the very same system. Now there is this idea that white people in the US are “dying of whiteness” blogs.bmj.com/medical-humanities/2020/12/04/book-review-dying-of-whiteness/

So none of this makes me react against the idea of intersectionality because I don’t think the idea is meant to be a hierarchy or an oppression olympics. People just misuse it that way.

How does this list make the white peoples feel?

theculturecraft.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/tumblr_mq5hqu45lk1s948iuo1_1280.jpg

I agree that it shouldn't be oppression olympics or indeed a hierarchy of oppression. I think it's just some people struggle with the notion that multiple things can be true at once. A sort of cognitive dissonance.

I started this thread because I was musing how women with privileges can oppress and other women through various micro and (and not so micro) aggressions.

Just like men with privilege can and do oppress other men.

Feminists acknowledge male to female oppression. And probably partially acknowledge male to male structural (race, class) oppression.

But will deny and be very uncomfortable with female to female structural oppression

So none of this makes me react against the idea of intersectionality because I don’t think the idea is meant to be a hierarchy or an oppression olympics. People just misuse it that way.

But that is the issue. On pure theoretical grounds intersectionality is fine. But the use of it is often not. And that is why people are criticising it and challenging what they see as lazy thought terminating cliches. They don't have to think it's the one true path to social justice.

I just missed the evidence for female structural problems

Many (but not all) Jewish people are white. They experience huge amounts of racism - and their experiences are repeatedly dismissed and denied (as has been seen on various MN threads including a recent zoom chat with David Baddiel). Last weekend, there was an anti lockdown march in London (a city with a large Jewish population). Led by far right anti semitic figures including David Icke, with marchers wearing yellow stars. A poster on another thread pointed out that if these people had been wearing KKK robes, they would've been arrested (and rightly so). Many (but not all) Jewish people are white. There was no white privilege for Jewish people last weekend (or over centuries of racism and persecution).

@ allTealightsandd "No other minority (would be treated this way)" not sure if it was Baddiel or that Guardian journo who coined this phrase. I remember it from around the general election.

But none of these things are mutually exclusive and no one is claiming they should be.

If a lot of antisemitism is happening then we should try to stop it - not demand equivalent inaction over other forms of racism.

@ATieLikeRichardGere my thoughts on that list is that it uses language which has historical cultural relevance in the USA and not the UK.

My other key thought is that like much of the discourse in the USA it is very reductive rather than intersectional.
A person and their place in society is based on far more than their whiteness or otherwise.
Genuine intersection would look at all the protected characteristics, socio economic status and issues like being a care leaver.
To provide a rounded and nuanced picture of the challenges for any individual or small groups of individuals.

Reflecting on the idea of white oriented action I am doubtful that most people in the UK any way consciously have an action oriented white identity.

In part because being in a significant majority situation means that there is little need to consider part of your life most people around you also share.

What I am trying to say is that there is a difference between noticing other people are black or Asian and noticing you are white.
If you are in the majority of the ethnicity you are more likely to notice others ethnicity and not your own.

The UK is also very different to the USA in part because there has never been a significant and prolonged effort by white peoples to hold power over other racial groups living in the country using extreme violence at times to achieve this.

Certainly those with any power have always been reluctant to share it and used violence to help achieve this which can be seen in racism, sexism and classism and the political struggles against these.

However an entire political and legal structure was not created to keep one racial identity under the control of another.

I don't doubt there is structural racism ( I would include anti semitism which in the UK, which has existed for centuries) just as there is structural sexism and classism.

Who's asking for equivalent inaction? I'm most definitely not. I'm just pointing out an issue with talking about the notion of white privilege (that it often ignores the very unprivileged experiences of Jewish people).

@ allTealightsandd Got the name now - twas Hadley Freeman!

@VladmirsPoutine

@ allTealightsandd "No other minority (would be treated this way)" not sure if it was Baddiel or that Guardian journo who coined this phrase. I remember it from around the general election.

I'd add in disabled people. The UN has condemned the UK treatment of the disabled. Yet still it goes on.

I genuinely know a black Jewish disabled woman. She's faced so much discrimination and prejudice in her life. It's shameful.

Sorry @Tealightsandd don't know why my phone isn't @' you properly!

No worries@VladmirsPoutine
I'll have to look up her article.

I think the issue was that Labour was no longer a safe haven for Jews so many felt compelled to vote for the Tories. I'm over that whole discussion as it was quite 'tribal' suffice that there's really no room for the middle ground.

[quote ATieLikeRichardGere]How does this list make the white peoples feel?

theculturecraft.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/tumblr_mq5hqu45lk1s948iuo1_1280.jpg[/quote]
The only positive white identity in this list is the one that wants to eradicate whiteness.

Reminds me of an interview with a white supremacist who said he loved this sort of thing, as it basically prepared people to accept his message.

That list says 'people who identify with whiteness'

I am well aware that how light or dark you are is a big thing in many many countries, and has caused people to be separated out, classified etc.

That doesn't seem to be about that though.

What does identify with whiteness mean?

Does it mean that for those who view being white as a big part of their identity, a really important thing about who they are, the list applies? Rather than anyone who is white but doesn't have it as a key thing in their sense of self iyswim

It's very unclear.

Most of what has been post on this thread as pics or links, asking for reaction.

Has been either clickbait or just random and from who knows what and what's the context.

Isn't there anything a bit more heavy duty, preferably UK based, to get our teeth into?

I mean I can post a random screenshot saying anything really (internet has all the opinions in the world!) and say discuss.

I also feel that after the v lengthy conversation about an awful lot of different aspects, to post that is a bit... Lacking in genuine engagement with this thread as a conversation iyswim.

So, academic award winning studies on intersectionality and privilege and academic and RCM/N survey analyses that indicate similar are not ‘heavy duty’ enough for you?
And the personal experiences that Mumsnetters mentioned.
😃🙄

My takeaway is that there is far too much defensiveness and lack of reflection on this issue. Pretty much what the first article that you call “click bait” said 🤷‍♀️

I d was talking about your link in the OP, op. And this pic which seems a really odd thing to post on here after all that's been said.

I thought I'd read the thread pretty much but maybe have missed some!

Certainly your OP link was clickbait and the pic just now is just weird, I don't know who posted that.

'white feminism' describes me. I come from old money, I had a privileged upbringing. Im in my 20s, my parents grew up in africa with black nannys and black housekeepers, their families were paid 'white wages' and they benefitted from racism.
Me? I grew up with primogeniture hanging over my female body: no matter how much I rebelled against feminine clothing or participated in male orientated sports, everyone in my family knew I was female. I would never inherit the estate, and to be accepted by my family I would never talk about how I was touched by older members of the family.
The privilege of being well off and white? Its not all roses, im not disabled or coloured, does that mean that being female hasnt negatively influenced my life?

Sorry, the concepts in the image I posted were devised by Prof Barnor Hesse, an Associate Professor of African American Studies, Political Science, and Sociology at Northwestern University (USA). As you can imagine, they got shared widely online and opinions were divided. I did just share it because it got a reaction from me and I wondered what other reactions would be. But it is, yet again, from the USA.

I guess maybe we should talk about something by Afua Hirsch? David Olusoga?

@Sociallydistancedcocktails

I started this thread because I was musing how women with privileges can oppress and other women through various micro and (and not so micro) aggressions.

Just like men with privilege can and do oppress other men.

Feminists acknowledge male to female oppression. And probably partially acknowledge male to male structural (race, class) oppression.

But will deny and be very uncomfortable with female to female structural oppression

I disagree, I'm often seeing threads on Mumsnet which include women oppressing other women. Topics ranging from older generations of women preserving misogynistic practices such as FGM, to the privileged women such as Jameela Jamil who spouts TWAW with little consideration for the impact that has on women in vulnerable positions who aren't protected by her cocoon of wealth. Do you read much on Mumsnet FWR? You seem to have an idea of what feminism is based on a very LibFem model. Not sure what you want from us really, OP. You posted the article on midwife disciplinaires and there were a number of thoughtful posts trying to analyse the situation, which you quickly jumped in to say we're all racist - completely unfairly. It feels like any kind of analysis or criticism is automatically accused as being 'white tears' - really, your arguments have been very poor, provocative and lazy. Are you trying to goad someone into saying something really nasty and racist, is that your aim? You seem to be trying to get a cheap thrill rather than having a genuine discussion, otherwise you would have joined in more in the conversation and engaged, rather than plopping lists downfor us to discuss. "Here's a list, I want you to discuss it, but anyone who criticizes it in any way is a racist." Righty-ho, then.