‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

Im curious, do the posters who deny white feminism, also deny white male privilege?

I agree with froggy and other pp who have said there is an awful lot of similar language here as when talking about patriarchy to men. Similar whataboutry

I said that earlier about the defensiveness. And yet I suspect that I am one of the people that is aimed at.

Deny is an interesting word. Quite loaded.

I posted a good example of what I see as white feminism upthread.

What do you want out of this thread OP? The piece you provided, I put my comments upthread as well. I agree with some of it and disagree with some of it.

I've mentioned some instances of black men dying at the hands of the police in response to some comments, little interest.

I'd be really interested to hear from you having read the thread, what you think. What do you mean by 'deny' white feminism exists?

There's a lot of very interesting posts on here and it would be good to hear your views. For eg about the met and racism and death that I mentioned. Or the history of the English/ Irish. Or about the girls in Rotherham etc.

I know you didn't prompt those comments but I think this thread has covered a lot of ground. Any thoughts?

@NiceGerbil

But there you go smoked duck with the oppression Olympics/ harm scale/ guessing how you'd feel thing.

Why is ranking these things helpful?

Why is an overt display of misogyny (move this woman we won't sit next to her) which is complied with even though it goes against the actual policy of the airline... And coming from a view of women that they will somehow make the men unclean...

Just hmm well that sounds ok Vs this other thing?

What about the girls and women in my part of London growing up in that very closed community? Are they ok? What if they aren't? How do we know? We don't. Because despite loads of reports about illegal schools etc the govt and LA feel easier to leave well alone.

By saying ok yeah it's not as bad for those men to see women as too... Whatever.. to even sit next to on a plane. And to have their request she moves complied with over and over because... Well they're men. And they're yes of a group that is not considered iffy. And they are religious. And so the woman gets moved even though it's against policy because who says no to men like that?!

Some might see it as minor. But I would encourage looking further than that. What does that massive sense of entitlement and the fact it works say about the lives for the women in their community? Etc etc

None of this is simple. I wish it was.

But in the end women and girls have been oppressed all over the world for as long as we can remember, by men. The laws were follow were written by men for men to protect the things men care about. Property. Women are still seen as property to a greater or lesser extent everywhere. The legacy of being property does not vanish.

Attempts to divide and cause in fighting have gone on forever. And yes they work. With some people, many people. I'm s feminist not of this school or that school. Have been since before I knew the word. I care about all women all over the world. So the different types of shit that all boil down to one thing. Men's desire to exert control over us to ensure who the dad is. And a subtext of seeing us/ treating us as inferior to displace any feelings of guilt.

All of it stems from that. That's the fundamental or the root cause. Another word for root is radical- like radish. Not extremist or something. From the root. And I was also a radical feminist before I knew the term. Because that's how I've seen things since I was really quite young.

The fact that 'radical feminist' now means evil, pretty much. That's interesting, isn't it.

All the women all over the world who see the structure and history as I do. And if you hear what feminists in India, various African countries, various South American countries say. It's that. The root cause.

They're all lumped in with the, essentially, defamation of a branch of feminism with a long history and that is inbuilt into some women, many women, just to see and know.

Marvellous.

I really don't know what you are talking about here, I am saying that you really can't rank people's feelings, and that also different people may have different ways of thinking about these kinds of incidents, and that is ok.

It's the opposite of trying to create some objective hierarchy.

And then you seem to be arguing with what you imagine is my "ranking"? After saying oppression hierarchies are bad?

@Sociallydistancedcocktails

Im curious, do the posters who deny white feminism, also deny white male privilege?

I agree with froggy and other pp who have said there is an awful lot of similar language here as when talking about patriarchy to men. Similar whataboutry

I don't think it's a useful concept, though I don't think it's all that analogous to white feminism really. They both come out of the same theoretical frameworks though.

Maybe an aside, but "whataboutery" is quite a specific thing. It does not mean talking about parallel arguments to examine the logic, or examining the consistency of an argument, or any number of logical tools you can use in a discussion to unpick what is being said and how the argument works.

It gets pulled out a heck of a lot to describe those things for some reason.

'You know, I kind of feel like the men on the plane would be less upsetting too. I think because I am actually sympathetic to the realities of men and women being different - I would understand for example if a woman preferred not to sit next to strange men on planes, and I'd understand if a man was uncomfortable sitting next to a girl travelling alone he didn't know. I think some of the religious prohibitions around these relate to problems of this kind which are real'

You imagine. Imagine- not something that's happened. That it wouldn't be so bad.

That's you ranking.

Then you talk about women not wanting to sit next to men they don't know on a plane. Is that a thing? And if it is s thing, do the women ask for him to be moved and he is?

That would be a no.

Ditto the idea that a man might feel uncomfortable sitting next to a girl he didn't know. You mean s child? Or s young woman? And this happens and the man says move her and she gets moved?

What problems which are real do you mean?

You are suggesting that orthodox Jewish men ask for women to be moved to prevent real problems? What real problems?

I'm at a loss here as to what you are getting at tbh.

As an aside: I'd imagine, working in theatre as the OP does, the feminists she'd have encountered in her workplace were LibFems. There's no way they'd be 'allowed' to be anything else working in that sector. So these women she says were racist to her and boasting about how their promotion was for the benefit of all women, were LibFems. These are the white feminists she's complaining about, the ones who call others 'white feminists' for prioritising women. I'd actually like to have more detail from the OP on this, rather than articles about America being dumped on us to discuss, it might actually prove to be a valuable conversation. She doesn't seem willing to discuss the UK or real life scenarios, though, which is a shame. I hope she's not as bad at facilitating dialogue in her job, I would imagine it's pretty important to her role from what she's said.

Also, theatre is the bitchiest work environment in existence, so it's hardly surprising you've come across a few, although I understand it's a double blow that they have also been racist when they are no doubt professionally woke. I'd actually be very interested to hear more about this hypocritical culture in the arts sector and think it could be educational, but apparently the OP thinks it's more productive to accuse us all of 'white feminism' and of crying 'white woman's tears' ourselves. Well, that's productive, isn't it.

I’m always interested in comparisons and I would be interested to compare eg London to other parts of the UK. From where I’m sitting, London always seems like a foreign country, and I’ve spent considerably less time in London than I’ve spent in the US or parts of Europe in my life. Just a hypothesis but I wonder how feminism and racism and sexism might be different and I really suspect they would be.

MPs as a whole get a lot of abuse. Diane Abbott singularly, that is to say, by her self receives nearly half of all the abuse targeted at MPs. I can't think what is it is about Diane that makes her different to white male MPs who get abused, or black male MPs who get abuse or indeed even white female MPs who get abuse. But she alone just happens to randomly get nearly half it.

I think it helps to have terms like white feminism & privilege etc - they aren't perfect but does help to put into language what a woc may feel / experience. I personally came about feminism the other way round i.e. being proudly 'anti-feminist' for years.

The OP wasnt accusing you of anything @Novelusername but good job on centering yourself. Your hurt feelings are definitely the issue here.

Diane Abbott’s experience definitely seems like an example of intersectional racism/sexism.

Where does the white feminism come in - where white women don’t understand or deny that this is happening? Where white women fail to do something about it?

The abuse Diane Abbott receives is both misogynist and racist. Sure Priti Patel can tell a similar story.

As you say, black women get the sharp end of sexism and of racism.

Can you say where the concept of white feminism comes in here? I've never seen a feminist defend abuse of public figures, or racist abuse of anybody.

nogerbil I think I love you
I'm all over that brand of feminism, thank you for your post

This bit specifically for the posters who said they didn't understand
I'm s feminist not of this school or that school. Have been since before I knew the word. I care about all women all over the world. So the different types of shit that all boil down to one thing. Men's desire to exert control over us to ensure who the dad is. And a subtext of seeing us/ treating us as inferior to displace any feelings of guilt.

All of it stems from that. That's the fundamental or the root cause. Another word for root is radical- like radish. Not extremist or something. From the root. And I was also a radical feminist before I knew the term. Because that's how I've seen things since I was really quite young.

I’m always interested in comparisons and I would be interested to compare eg London to other parts of the UK. From where I’m sitting, London always seems like a foreign country, and I’ve spent considerably less time in London than I’ve spent in the US or parts of Europe in my life. Just a hypothesis but I wonder how feminism and racism and sexism might be different and I really suspect they would be

London is another planet and always pushing irritating and irrelevant American cultural imperialism. Can't say 'thug', CRT, identity based fringe activism. Buzzwords and indecipherable US academia jargon. It means FA here.

Also London is always in news and chattering class discussion. Last week a teenager was stabbed to death in, I think, Bradford again and a teenager was in London. Might have been the same day. The latter was all over the national news, the former wasn't. This is very typical, week in week out

It's hard to describe just how hated London is here.

I think Vladimir s description of white feminism being a way to describe how people feel is useful to me

About how there are issues that some couldn't care less about as they are low on their personal priority stack due to race giving them more problems (( that gets interesting.. sometimes comes across as no one should bother with feminism as racism is more important)

I don't see evidence that it stand as a clearly defined thing in its own right ( uk based and abstract theory isn't my strong point. ) but I would find it interesting if we had a breakdown of the sex snd race of those sending abuse to Diane abbot and a similar profile for the other politicians

...and I'd honestly pay good money to see a Londoner come to a council estate up here and try push a 'white tears' narrative.

It would end in tears, but i doubt in the way they'd hope for.

I found another few explanations of what white feminism would be in here:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=EYJpG5ILJac

One idea would be that making women equal to men is impossible when men of all races aren’t equal so I think the idea that the priority order is wrong and leads to white women being oppressive over other minorities by just joining in the oppression perpetuated by white men

Another would be the white saviour complex which I think I’ve essentially referred to in my previous posts eg the idea of white women trying to “liberate” Muslim women from what they view as a religious oppression

Another one would be the idea that we are complicit in the capitalist aspect that is a continuation of colonialism when we buy cheap fashion, petrol etc

Porcupineintherough
I'm not centring myself, merely suggesting that 'white women are a bunch of bitches to WOC, discuss' then dropping in further similar articles about America and refusing to elaborate further on the real life examples given is perhaps not the best approach to enabling the discussion. I'm pretty sure the reaction would be the same if I tried to start a discussion with 'WOC are bitches to white women, discuss', then refused to elaborate on examples given and told anyone who was questioning me that they were defensive and crying 'black tears'. I've never doubted there is white privilege and that the interests of WOC can be left out by white feminists, either by omission or deliberate racism. I'm against the way the American dialogues surrounding these issues are all about accusation, guilt and division rather than reconciliation. It works against feminism by dividing us all up and setting us against each other.

White and non white men exploit, abuse, beat, rape and kill women at similar rates don't they.

But it wouldn't enter my head to think that the anti racist movement should start first by eliminating the abuse of all women all over the world before addressing specific race related issues.

Yeah look I mean I agree with all of these things as problematic and as I’ve said I’m on board with white privilege and white tears as real things and real problems.

I also think this analysis falls short as well though. I think a lot of what we are calling whiteness could sometimes be better explained as US economic and cultural imperialism. And British too, of course, but it plays a different role.

The thing I’ve done by far the most reading on, give the most thought to, is the problems of capitalism, the oppressive dynamics therein, the impact on the planet and how it’s killing people and everything else.

Then I get frustrated watching Beyoncé beautifully staking the position of black women, their ethnic roots, their claim to place in the USA, their relationships, in Lemonade...but then as part of that she says things like “best revenge is your paper” and I have to stop because I’m like, surely that is part of the problem. But then I’m like obviously I don’t get to tell black women in America what their economics should be, nor should I be expecting Beyoncé to be perfect or a spokeswoman for all women of colour. I watch Black is King and then I’m seeing lots of African people accusing her of American imperialism and basically not really knowing Africa yet pronouncing on it. And I’m thinking that’s just what white Americans do when they blast in here with their bizarre clan and Celtic identities.

And then I think well I just have to stay out of it! As a white person there’s not much I can positively contribute here.

I just try to limit my capitalist impact. I try to use reusable nappies for my daughter. I can’t. I’m tired. Post partum there is not enough support for me. So I use economic privilege to at least pay extra for plastic free ones. I remember others don’t even have that luxury to limit their impact. I think is all pointless anyway when the US - amongst others obviously - is guzzling resources.

And probably I’m also being racist by somehow thinking about this wrong.

And I’m white. I’m British. I’m not English. I’ve got zero to do with London. One of my parents is an immigrant. One of their parents was an immigrant. Their country doesn’t even exist anymore. They all hate the British, but they moved here for the advantages, ensured I would be British. But then I remember I feel like I fit in nowhere. And all this gets erased under whiteness.

Then I give up!

‘Im curious, do the posters who deny white feminism, also deny white male privilege?’

Yes. I have said several times that I don’t believe in standpoint theory, privilege as a useful category of intersectionality as a useful tool outside of the legal system.

I do however take on board some criticisms of what I have said from Gerbil, Froggy and Duck. There have been some really good contributions on this thread that have made me rethink some ideas.

We are all (anyone interested in political or social issues) struggling to work out how to make positive changes in a world where so many people have been caught up in these postmodern theories that have morphed into a religion.

We have now got to figure out how to keep on talking about issues for all the most disadvantaged people - those in care, abuse victims, those living in poverty, people with disabilities, those who have been sexual assaulted.

It has become hard to discuss and communicate about those issues, as well as racism and sexism, when the shared ways of communicating ideas got stalled by these other theories.

It isn’t just a few people who got swept up in talking about privilege etc. Most people who discuss issues on the internet got swept up in it initially. It was only when the problems around cancel culture, cultural imperialism, bullying, ignoring class, supernatural beliefs in gender and religiosity began to emerge from it that people began to fall away and distrust it all.

Even for the people who now are trying to move past it, many of them still wasted a lot of the last 15 years trying to fruitlessly engage with these ideas.

We are lucky I think in the U.K. in that we try to focus on quite practical and material ways of making change.

But we’ve still been impacted by these postmodern ideas. Look at what had happened to the Labour Party over both antisemitism and losing its focus on class.

I am enjoying this podcast so far:

www.weneedtotalkaboutwhiteness.com/

Excellent post Liberty