‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

I think this is the type of thing I was referring to. It is across the medical profession, same patterns for minority docs facing greater disciplinarians and probably more widely applicable in elite professions across UK

From Klines study (in UK. Whew 😅)
“An excellent report from the Royal College of Midwives found that

“Black and minority ethnic midwives (BME) in London are disproportionately more likely to face disciplinary proceedings, and receive a more severe outcome from disciplinary proceedings….. Over these five years (2010-2015) 38 midwives were dismissed and worryingly 37 of these were from a BME background. Overall, from July 2010 to June 2015, 13.2% of the BME midwives who faced disciplinary proceedings were dismissed, compared with 0.7% of the white midwives who faced disciplinary proceedings.” www.rcm.org.uk/equality-and-diversity

@LangClegsInSpace

Read my post again.

Slowly if it helps.

At no point did I write the woman should not have sought justice.

In fact, I wrote that I fully understood her position.

HTH

Midwifery report is interesting and worrying. Is there any more follow up in terms of explaining what structures are making this happen? Is it purely to do with racist panels or could it be do with, for example, access to quality representation? I have searched but could see much by way of analysis that wasn’t behind a paywall.

*couldn’t

It could be that BME midwives are more likely to work in hospitals that have not put in place policies and procedures that adequately support, provide ongoing training, management and supervision of midwives. They may also be more likely to be overworked and have poorer facilities. They would therefore be more likely to make mistakes if they inadequate support. They may also be dealing with more complex high risk cases where mistakes are more likely to happen.

There may also be issues with the NHS bringing in midwives who have trained abroad and then failing to provide adequate training on different methods and policies which needed to be followed in the NHS.

I think I saw a report about how more BME people were more likely to be working on the front line during covid, partly because white people were refusing to do those roles, if I understood well.

In the NHS Gere?

BME people are over-represented in occupations with a higher COVID risk- retail, taxi drivers, security.

It also sounds plausible for the NHS, especially if they are bringing in agency staff.

I think I saw a report about how more BME people were more likely to be working on the front line during covid, partly because white people were refusing to do those roles, if I understood well.

Do you have any evidence for this claim please. I can't find anything

Also, again, this seems to be all about London again. It always is. Either London or the USA

I have been considering the Noel Clarke situation which I see as running alongside ideas such as white feminism taking hold.

A position where a black working class man states that he is a strong supporter of minorities as well as being one himself.

It takes a grouping of 20 women before they are confident enough to say anything.

I wonder if just one or two white women would have been written off as having white tears?

I absolutely think that BAME women in the UK experience both racism and sexism but I don't think ideas like white tears help them either.

Misogyny is all alive and well in all racial and ethnic groups and if cases like Rotherham have told us anything it should be that all women deserve to be listened to.

I wonder if just one or two white women would have been written off as having white tears?

This is very crass but I can assure you - white women tears win out because they are white. Black women are oft depicted as undesirable, unfeminine, strong, 'mammi' types. Black women's tears are usually only worthwhile when extracting trauma from them about their 'hard' lives.

@Flaxmeadow

I think this is what I read www.tuc.org.uk/news/one-five-bme-workers-treated-unfairly-work-during-covid-19-tuc-reveals

I absolutely think that BAME women in the UK experience both racism and sexism but I don't think ideas like white tears help them either.

They do a lot. I've mentored a few young Black women and see just how thrown off balance they get when faced with white tears. Having language to explain and describe their frustration at being castigated for 'making Sarah cry over a few photocopies' or asking 'Melanie not to touch my hair' whilst balancing professionalism with 'not having an attitude' has really done a number on some of these young women. I don't know how they navigate it - god knows I'm so happy no longer to be in the corporate world.

I agree VladmirsPoutine that white women's distress is often treated differently to that of BAME women.

My point was that both appear to be lesser than that of men of any ethnicity in the UK.

So in terms of keeping women as a whole group safe assuming that white women are falsely weaponizing tears when making allegations against bame men is an unhelpful starting point to import from the USA.

NRTFT this may have been said but the people who tend to whine about white feminism couldn't give a flying fuck about WOC, they just want half the female population to STFU

@NiceGerbil

'You know, I kind of feel like the men on the plane would be less upsetting too. I think because I am actually sympathetic to the realities of men and women being different - I would understand for example if a woman preferred not to sit next to strange men on planes, and I'd understand if a man was uncomfortable sitting next to a girl travelling alone he didn't know. I think some of the religious prohibitions around these relate to problems of this kind which are real'

You imagine. Imagine- not something that's happened. That it wouldn't be so bad.

That's you ranking.

Then you talk about women not wanting to sit next to men they don't know on a plane. Is that a thing? And if it is s thing, do the women ask for him to be moved and he is?

That would be a no.

Ditto the idea that a man might feel uncomfortable sitting next to a girl he didn't know. You mean s child? Or s young woman? And this happens and the man says move her and she gets moved?

What problems which are real do you mean?

You are suggesting that orthodox Jewish men ask for women to be moved to prevent real problems? What real problems?

I'm at a loss here as to what you are getting at tbh.

It's really irrelevant why it would bother me less, we aren't talking about plane seating.

The point was, as I said in the post, that is how I feel, that was similar to some extent to how the poster I was replying to felt, but not everyone will feel the same because our feelings about it are a subjective experience.

Are you female Smoked? If you don't mind me asking.

@LibertyMole

It could be that BME midwives are more likely to work in hospitals that have not put in place policies and procedures that adequately support, provide ongoing training, management and supervision of midwives. They may also be more likely to be overworked and have poorer facilities. They would therefore be more likely to make mistakes if they inadequate support. They may also be dealing with more complex high risk cases where mistakes are more likely to happen.

There may also be issues with the NHS bringing in midwives who have trained abroad and then failing to provide adequate training on different methods and policies which needed to be followed in the NHS.

I wondered about the trained abroad element. Quite a lot of black doctors where I am are from abroad and I know there are more problems in general with doctors from elsewhere not having the same training. But I don't know much about the demographics of midwives.

This sort of thing drives me really a bit mad though, you see statistics like this all the time but no one seems to have bothered to actually analyse the information.

If there is a real disparity, there has to be a mechanism, and the mechanism is the important part. I sometimes think there is some sort of weird conspiracy not to look at the mechanism but in cases like this I can't see who that would advantage.

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

Are you female Smoked? If you don't mind me asking.

Yeah, all my life. Why?

Just curious - no offence intended.

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

Just curious - no offence intended.

I suspect the person who originally said she found sexist discrimination less upsetting overall than racist discrimination was also actually a woman.

I'm not sure why that's become controversial in the thread somehow, it's just a personal feeling, I'd expect many women might feel the opposite.

Well it's impossible to tell isn't it?

And we have a good few regular male posters.

It is interesting that people try to defend the indefensible by saying perhaps these nurses were ‘foreign’ and somehow lacking the appropriate skills.

Rather than racism and that they were othered because of prejudice. Often by their white female colleagues and superiors. I guess it doesn’t fit with the sisterhood narrative 🤷‍♀️

journals.rcni.com/nursing-standard/feature/factors-related-to-the-disproportionate-representation-of-bme-nurses-in-nhs-disciplinary-proceedings-ns.35.10.60.s34/full

I'm not comfy at all with the foreign midwives points either tbh