‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

‘I’m still not sure if it’s generally just white women denying the experiences of racism by women of colour or if it’s also more to do with white women not understanding the experiences of women of colour more generally - experiences that aren’t so much linked to racism, and more linked to difference.’

This seems like a pretty good definition, but when a poster tried to talk about HBV and other related issues, they were told these were not relevant intersectional examples.

Eastie I don't understand your post.

That's the sort of oppression Olympics thing that is so damaging.

Both are wrong.

Being on the receiving end of racial abuse.
Being told to move on a plane because the men believe sitting next to you will sully them in some way. And the airline doing it even though it goes against their own written policy.

This is the point. People can care about lots of different things. Both are wrong. The argument over who has it worse has again been leveraged with brilliant style to enact massive reversals whereby those who have maximum privilege whine about being done down.

And as an aside, Stamford hill? I'm not too far away! If it is.

@LibertyMole what is HBV?

And while we're on the pretty much closed hasidic community, at least the one in my neck of the woods.

There have been massive issues in the schools, some of which are in the state system (public money).

I just started reading again and got sidetracked!

The government seems to have little appetite to sort it out.

Honour based violence.

There are loads of illegal schools. The boys are supposed to study religious texts from 13. I don't know what happens to the girls. I did read years ago about a state funded school where the boys and girls were separate and taught very different things.

It's a closed community. Very closed. I dread to think what could go on.

Ditto for the closed Christian community here. Think Amish style. Little interference. Living totally outside of society.

And it's so hard to leave. People who are expelled are prone to suicide.

My part of London seems to be unusually inhabited by more interesting religious sects. We've got a meeting House for a bona fide 70s cult round the corner from our house!

Anyway.

This blunt approach is not what any of the original ideas around intersectionality were about.

It was about being aware and open to hearing and knowing that you won't ever really get, things that don't apply to you.

The idea that any white female can burst into tears and get whatever they want is misogynist bollocks.

If it were true then I suppose all those girls in Rotherham, children's homes, etc etc were just too thick to cry and be believed.

@LibertyMole Honour based violence seems like it would a prime intersectional feminist issue, so that’s confusing.

@Sociallydistancedcocktails

I think we are going around in circles 😊 I think ‘white’ is a shorthand for socially dominant middle class. In UK and US that tends to be white.

White feminism is the middle class feminism that benefits from the race and class structure. The same structures that disadvantage women from other backgrounds

But it's shitty shorthand because it is so incorrect.

Lots of the middle class are white, yes, though there is an established non-white middle class in the UK and the US, and it is getting larger.

And there are lots and lots of people who are working class or in poverty or vulnerable who are entirely white. In the US where this stuff comes from they are an increasingly significant political force because they've been so politically and economically disenfranchised, especially by the left.

Where do they fit in when someone talks about "white feminism?"

And as you can see on the thread there are clearly people who see the phrase as meaning racist feminism which is another thing altogether.

Yes, I think it would be an intersectional issue on the basis that it requires legal action and understanding and impacts overwhelmingly on people who are both female and from minority ethnic groups.

It also fits into the idea of white feminism because the lean in type feminists often have a poor understanding and knowledge of it, although I think it is pretty well understand by most feminists who happen to be white, at least in the U.K.

The CPS notes that they wish to remove the word honour from this violence but at this point aren't sure what to do.

They refer to it as

So called 'honour' based violence.

As a person who sees connections.

I understand 100% the reason that this form of violence has a separate category.

And we're going off topic now sorry.

But. Loads of white women in England have their movements controlled. Are beaten up after going for a drink with a friend on the basis they were out flirting. Are murdered for infidelity. Or imagined infidelity. A woman or older girl or even female group if there is no male there. is seen by men as fair game. They're a female on their own. Follow, hassle, wank at, shout at, get aggressive with. No male chaperone, fair game.

This is not anywhere near as bad. As entrenched. As overtly normal. As not a police matter. As in plenty of countries and groups from various cultures in the UK.

But. But. It's the same. The same root. The same male entitlement. Control rage.

I find the oh isn't it awful honour based well you know how they are. Next page man kills wife of 30 years as he thought she was having an affair. Man kills ex girlfriend because he didn't want her to leave. Man kills daughter after she refuses to stop seeing local dodgy fella. Etc etc.

It's good to understand the different risks and drivers and norms, as it were.

It's a mistake to think of it as something 'they' do. When 'we' do it all the time but it's common and well you know she was seeing someone else...

To be clear, I was simply describing my own personal view as someone who has experienced both racism and sexism. I was not attempting to speak on behalf of all Black women or pit one form of oppression against the other. However it seemed that challenging the opinion that white women face the same levels of oppression as Black women is really not the done thing.

You know, I kind of feel like the men on the plane would be less upsetting too. I think because I am actually sympathetic to the realities of men and women being different - I would understand for example if a woman preferred not to sit next to strange men on planes, and I'd understand if a man was uncomfortable sitting next to a girl travelling alone he didn't know. I think some of the religious prohibitions around these relate to problems of this kind which are real. I understand how that kind of system can develop.

Whereas racial slurs are designed to be specifically offensive and degrading in a different kind of way, a way that is actively dehumanising.

I do think though that while it's valid to compare your own feelings about those things, it's almost impossible to compare them with other people's experiences and feelings. Another person might actually have a totally different internal response to the same thing as you. And while it's kind of shitty that people don't make the distinction between observations about oneself and generalisations, IME people don't respond well when they think that is what you are doing. Men, women, people of any race or culture - they are likely to respond poorly.

I don’t think it is worse; I think it requires different treatment because it follows different patterns.

For example there is often a network of perpetrators and a network of informants.

All the forms of DV ultimately go back to control, entitlement, objectification and the status of women as property. Those are cross cultural.

And I don’t think you are going off topic NiceGerbil, understanding what elements are common to all women and which elements are context specific is what feminism should be about.

But there you go smoked duck with the oppression Olympics/ harm scale/ guessing how you'd feel thing.

Why is ranking these things helpful?

Why is an overt display of misogyny (move this woman we won't sit next to her) which is complied with even though it goes against the actual policy of the airline... And coming from a view of women that they will somehow make the men unclean...

Just hmm well that sounds ok Vs this other thing?

What about the girls and women in my part of London growing up in that very closed community? Are they ok? What if they aren't? How do we know? We don't. Because despite loads of reports about illegal schools etc the govt and LA feel easier to leave well alone.

By saying ok yeah it's not as bad for those men to see women as too... Whatever.. to even sit next to on a plane. And to have their request she moves complied with over and over because... Well they're men. And they're yes of a group that is not considered iffy. And they are religious. And so the woman gets moved even though it's against policy because who says no to men like that?!

Some might see it as minor. But I would encourage looking further than that. What does that massive sense of entitlement and the fact it works say about the lives for the women in their community? Etc etc

None of this is simple. I wish it was.

But in the end women and girls have been oppressed all over the world for as long as we can remember, by men. The laws were follow were written by men for men to protect the things men care about. Property. Women are still seen as property to a greater or lesser extent everywhere. The legacy of being property does not vanish.

Attempts to divide and cause in fighting have gone on forever. And yes they work. With some people, many people. I'm s feminist not of this school or that school. Have been since before I knew the word. I care about all women all over the world. So the different types of shit that all boil down to one thing. Men's desire to exert control over us to ensure who the dad is. And a subtext of seeing us/ treating us as inferior to displace any feelings of guilt.

All of it stems from that. That's the fundamental or the root cause. Another word for root is radical- like radish. Not extremist or something. From the root. And I was also a radical feminist before I knew the term. Because that's how I've seen things since I was really quite young.

The fact that 'radical feminist' now means evil, pretty much. That's interesting, isn't it.

All the women all over the world who see the structure and history as I do. And if you hear what feminists in India, various African countries, various South American countries say. It's that. The root cause.

They're all lumped in with the, essentially, defamation of a branch of feminism with a long history and that is inbuilt into some women, many women, just to see and know.

Marvellous.

I know a woman (white as it happens but that's not really relevant I suppose) who was told by a nurse to 'stop breastfeeding' because 'some (male) visitors have complained'.

The woman was in bed, on a 8 bed hospital maternity ward, and had given birth just 12 hours earlier.

NiceGerbil Moving words, amen to that.

Fuxake.

Fuxake to flax's post there obviously! Sorry xpost

I am quite experienced about intersectionality, having lived it all my life 😊

What do you mean, you have lived it all your life? We all have. We all have protected characteristics that can intersect in various ways to produce specific types of discrimination that only operate at the intersection, and which are not reducible to a simple addition of discrimination based on each separate protected characteristic.

Did you follow the link to S14? Unlawful dual discrimination can happen at the intersection of any two of the following:

(a) age;
(b) disability;
(c) gender reassignment;
(d) race;
(e) religion or belief;
(f) sex;
(g) sexual orientation.

(it would be unlawful if S14 were brought into force).

Loads of cases could be brought for dual discrimination on the grounds of race and sex that would not succeed as either a sex or a race discrimination case - all the variations of 'But we do employ black people / but we do employ women,' for starters. Black men could bring a load of claims too.

But sex + race is only one of 21 possible combinations. Race can intersect with all the others and so can sex. That leaves 10 combinations that involve neither sex nor race. So intersectionality needs to also be able to talk about age + disability or disability + gender reassignment or religion or belief + sexual orientation or any other combination. I can think of many claims that could be brought on the grounds of age + sex and many more that could be brought on sex + sexual orientation. Disability intersects with pretty much everything.

This is what intersectionality is for. Bringing S14 into force would be good for everyone because we all live intersectional lives.

Lots of black women wrote about the intersection of race and sex before Crenshaw. What she did was point at the law and identify the specific loopholes that denied black women justice. She suggested the kind of law we need to stop people falling through the gaps of crudely written equality legislation.

I just don’t know the latest on the campaign you referred to.

As far as I know there is no campaign.

Perhaps I was too polite before when I said I was curious. In fact I am absolutely fucking gobsmacked that a load of people are wanging on about intersectionality while ignoring the fact that S14 of the EA was made law in 2010 but over a decade later it still hasn't been brought into force.

That does make me question some people's priorities and motivations.

I will gladly support any campaign to bring S14 into force but I can't start it because I am white. That's where we are.

When you start your campaign please demand that S14 also covers indirect discrimination and harassment. Please ask that pregnancy and maternity is included as a protected characteristic and if that is not possible ask for a subsection that states that pregnancy and maternity discrimination is included in sex discrimination for the purposes of S14.

Thank you and good luck.

Mat services in the UK.

Used pretty much universally.

There are issues with some groups of women around language etc or knowing how to get registered with gp etc. But whatever else anyone might say about the NHS they have a remit of public health and work hard to make their services accessible and universal. People in the UK will not be complacent about women not getting ante natal care etc. There are mortality rate differences and the point is they have been recorded, noticed, published, and people are concerned to find why.

Different to USA system, just for those who may want to leap in.

The fact that in hosps the fucking bounty people have been given access for years to do a hard sell to women who are by definition vulnerable. And that they let visitors of the opposite sex stay all night!!!! That would happen on no other ward. The why is obvious to me. Same as all this shit has been.

Load of shit.

How do you live intersectionality all your life?

For any characteristic there are times where you are comfy or not so. Situations where all is well. Parts of your life where there's less impact and parts where there are more.

The other point is that some of the characteristics that impact how you interact with the world are temporary or intermittent. Some can be disguised or hidden, albeit at a cost to the person doing the hiding.

The USA centric, historically and socially and globally incompetent, Twitter based, unthinking, tribal stuff is boring. Very very boring.

Let's talk about the police in the UK and how good black men are at accidentally dying when they encounter them (met based, nearly 50 years met, not trusted or liked them since I was little).

Let's talk about racism, misogyny, and the combination of racism and misogyny in our press and our society.

Let's talk about class, and how in the UK that is a larger indicator of whether you will be 'believed'. Not colour/ religion. White children male and female have been subjected to systematic sexual abuse over a long time. Sports coaches. Religious groups. Care homes for young people. Specialist hospitals for young people. Rotherham. Rochdale.

No doubt of tears helped. You think those children didn't cry? They told. They were not believed. Even the girls. Even though when white females turn on the waterworks they get what they want, apparently. And white women and girls use tears to get what they want.... ??!!??

Heard of Ireland? The history there? The famine and our role in it (I'm English, we did it, no issue saying that). Churchill. His attitude and actions. Northern Ireland. Now. Scenes on the TV that I haven't seen for years. I'm nearly 50, I remember how it was. I'm worried. For everyone.

All white people fucking over/ fighting with white people.

Irish people were heavily discriminated against for years. Those who came to my neck of the woods. North West London.

Anyway I keep writing essays sorry.

Where's the nuance and exchange of views.
Where's the acknowledgement that we're not the USA and have plenty of relevant history and current issues to discuss.
Where's the sodding debate and conversation.

This seems to be a huge problem in USA and spreading. Simplistic soundbite right wrong with us or against us.

It's so... Tedious.

And also. You know. I asked a poster earlier many times to discuss two cases of death of black men with the met. I care about those deaths. I want to talk about them. My views are a bit off the mainstream and well. They're important, them and all the others. Those men should be talked about.

But no. The offer to discuss two recent ish contraversial deaths of black men at the hands of the met, in one case how it was handled in the community. No response. Apart from in general implying I'm racist and etc etc blah blah.

No. Not buying it. I want to talk about this stuff in the context that I live in. A society I understand. But, that's not happening. Why?

@Eastie77

Some time ago I commented on a thread about a woman who sued an airline because a flight attendant asked her, on behalf of 2 Jewish men, if she could change seats. The men did not want to sit next to her, a woman they were not related to, due to their religious beliefs.

I commented that whilst I completely understood the woman's anger, I had also faced similar behaviour (I grew up in a Hasidic Jewish area) and personally I was more offended when a racist White man screamed "I'm not sitting next to that n***" at me on a train once. I stated that I found that racist abuse far worse than any sexist comments I've experienced.

Well my comments really didn't go down too well. The vitriol that came my way from white women on the thread who were outraged at the suggestion that my experience of racism was worse than sexism was eye-opening. I was called a fucking idiot, a hand-maiden, accused of playing oppression olympics and apparently I had internalised misogyny.

To be clear, I was simply describing my own personal view as someone who has experienced both racism and sexism. I was not attempting to speak on behalf of all Black women or pit one form of oppression against the other. However it seemed that challenging the opinion that white women face the same levels of oppression as Black women is really not the done thing.

White feminism is certainly a thing.

A woman was asked to move seats because some men refused to sit next to her on religious grounds?

S14 would have been very useful for her (religion/belief + sex)

Why was she asked to move and not the men?

It doesn't matter that you would be more offended by something different that happened to you, that doesn't affect this woman's right to seek justice and nor should it.

Pursue your own case for what happened to you on the train. I'm sure everyone here would support you.

It's happened more than once.

It's USA airlines flying between USA and Israel.

The airlines have policies that it's not allowed to do that (discrimination). But still the women get told to move never the men.

USA airlines in general seem to have real problems. A person being physically removed from a plane because they were of a certain appearance that made another passenger nervous. Other stuff. Google has it all. They sound awful.

One for Americans to get angry about. I tend to use Ryanair or easyJet I don't think USA airplanes are going to worry about what I think tbh.

Objecting to threads being derailed off-topic is White Feminism?

I’m not sure such an expansive definition has any value other than being convenient for determined thread derailers.

something is going a bit wrong with "white feminism" as a term out in the wild

In a nutshell.