‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

But nobody is claiming that racism isn’t real. They are disagreeing with concepts like white feminism, intersectionality and privilege, which are the topics of the thread.

Yes, exactly.

I think its lovely that feminism is the only place in society where racism doesn't rear its head or, if it does, where is acceptable to sideline dealing with it whilst more important stuff gets sorted out. Phew, thank goodness for that.

I won't be told by anyone how I can discuss things in a discussion about a term used to dismiss, ignore and smear women, and what is off limits.

Black women expressing an opinion "I find your statements racist" in a thread intended to dismiss, ignore and smear black people, is not censorship or telling people what they can and cannot say.

The fact that powerful women exist does not prove that sexism is not real and no longer had a negative effect on people's lives

Surely if you grow up poor and abused, that is the very definition of lacking privilege? Why do we focus on the fact that these kids also don’t experience racism? Why not focus on why black people are more statistically likely to be part of the class that lacks privilege and address that instead? Rather than wheeling out the ‘all white people are privileged’ nonsense. It’s not going to chime with people’s lived experience and it isn’t even true.

It’s not helpful to tell people who blatantly face severe hardship ‘oh well at least you don’t also have X’. If you’re living in a council estate, barely able to afford to eat, left school with no qualifications, what does ‘ah, but at least you’re not in a wheelchair and at least nobody racially abuses you’ actually add to anything? And that is precisely what many proponents of the privilege-analysis do. They suggest that all white people wield more power than all people of colour, which is total nonsense.

Thing is though the thread is about 'White feminism' the notion can't really be discussed without racism. The two are unfortunately interlinked. That said, I do think the term oft gets misappropriated to castigate any white woman who doesn't parrot the current day orthodoxy.

Be the change you want to see

How would you feel if a man tried to argue that the fact that wealthy powerful women exist proves that male privilege does not exist?
That's not what's happening though. op ( who has vanished) posted a lot about her high flying job and how "white feminists" hadn't helped her,white men had.
People started talking about whether in a UK context class was an equally important barrier as race, and that some of the most disadvantaged women are white Scots. Plus the relative lack of ethnic diversity in most of Scotland.
Then this got compounded by the "white tears" article thar further extrapolates US race relations as relevant to all white feminism.
Noone says racism isn't a problem and noone is ignoring/discounting your points.
It's a shame an interesting thread has been so derailed though

That's your opinion, to which you are of course entitled. I see it differently. I think you've missed the point of most of what people are saying.

This thread was not started to dismiss black people. If you think the OP intended that, you should report the thread to MNHQ as deliberately goady.

Surely if you grow up poor and abused, that is the very definition of lacking privilege?

A poor abused white kid will still have an easier time of it than a poor abused black kid though, that's the entire point. Yes both of them will lack privilege in a huge way. But the abused poor black kid will have an extra barrier on top of being poor and abused. Yet no one on this thread appears to be willing to acknowledge that black people also experience poverty and abuse, from reading this thread you'd get the impression all black people are wealthy CEOS!

Why not focus on why black people are more statistically likely to be part of the class that lacks privilege and address that instead?
I've pointed this out several times and been roundly ignored.

Rather than wheeling out the ‘all white people are privileged’ nonsense.
No one has said that.

I don't think it's been derailed, it's all kind of interlinked and on different levels all part of the same discussion.

Black women expressing an opinion "I find your statements racist" in a thread intended to dismiss, ignore and smear black people, is not censorship
OP is not white and said she started the thread to discuss white feminism. So I'd argue she was aiming to sow discord between groups, rather than smearing black people, and you've fallen for it hook line and sinker.

I agree with Quentin.

Noone says racism isn't a problem and noone is ignoring/discounting your points.

Disagree.

It's a shame an interesting thread has been so derailed though

It's a real shame that women of colour saying "here are my personal experiences and why I believe white privilege exists" is considered "derailing."

Yes well we all disagree with each other. This is constructive, isn't it? How shall we move forwards towards a more productive dialogue, anyone have any ideas?

Yet no one on this thread appears to be willing to acknowledge that black people also experience poverty and abuse
Of course black people experience poverty and abuse, you're drawing illogical conclusions. I've said race is one factor, along with x, y, z, which may be lesser or more important factors depending on the individual situation. Yknow, taking an actual intersectional approach.

I think we'd move towards more of a productive discussion if people on here (not referring to anyone in particular) didn't dismiss racism or minimise it and actually listened to others

Thoughts on this?:

“ Indeed, shared identity can emerge from shared conditions, but also from shared values, shared history of past struggles, a willingness to support each other, and a sense of pride in and belonging to local neighbourhoods. With this in mind, we need a conception of the working class that doesn’t play working-class people off against each other along the lines of deserving v undeserving, white v BME, British v migrants. Such divides have justified policies that make all ‘left behind’ groups worse off.”

www.runnymedetrust.org/blog/the-weaponisation-of-the-left-behind-white-working-class-harms-us-all

I've said race is one factor, along with x, y, z, which may be lesser or more important factors depending on the individual situation. Yknow, taking an actual intersectional approach.

So basically exactly what I said upthread?

This thread is not a thread just about experiences of racism. So posters have a right to speak even though they have not personally experienced racism. It is also a thread about the concepts of privilege, intersectionality and specifically the term "white feminism" and how it is used. All of us have valid experience to share and opinions about these things. If it was primarily a thread about the existence of racism, I would hope that people wouldn't talk over people sharing those experiences (but I'm sure they do). But it is not that thread.

@froggygoneacourting

I've said race is one factor, along with x, y, z, which may be lesser or more important factors depending on the individual situation. Yknow, taking an actual intersectional approach.

So basically exactly what I said upthread?

So what's the issue?

If you would stop using the word privilege you might get a lot further

No one is disagreeing that it's harder to be female and black than just black , it's just that's not a bloody privilege we have , because that implies something beyond basic right

I've said race is one factor, along with x, y, z, which may be lesser or more important factors depending on the individual situation. Yknow, taking an actual intersectional approach.

YY.

So basically exactly what I said upthread?

Lots of people have said versions of this, you weren't the first person.

So posters have a right to speak even though they have not personally experienced racism.

Someone disagreeing with you is not being denied the right to speak.

If you would stop using the word privilege you might get a lot further

Gosh and I'm the one being accused of telling posters what they can and cannot say!