‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

The original question is " do you think white feminism exists "

Not how does race affect people

But "are feminists more likely to be racist than the general population from which they are taken "

I think we'd move towards more of a productive discussion if people on here (not referring to anyone in particular) didn't dismiss racism or minimise it and actually listened to others
After froggys initial post there were many posts saying how good it was.
Look, I'm not sure how to demonstrate "listening" on the internet. If we STFU we are accused of ignoring. If we discuss and debate we are accused of dismissing. Its lose lose.

These points were being made in the first page of posts. We are now at 652.

The original question is " do you think white feminism exists "

Not how does race affect people

But "are feminists more likely to be racist than the general population from which they are taken "

I think this is a good question. I think women are often subject to higher expectations, and a lot of women involved in feminism are naturally concerned with their own issues. This applies to all groups in society.

I am not telling you what you can and can't say

I am telling you that if you don't want to appear to be a racist person you should stop using words that hurt people without any evidence that the word is justified

Like practise what you preach

Because how do we not know that in fact it's you who had privilege over others here?

You even implied we were being two faced and would apply the word privilege to men

I think Froggy can express herself how she wishes. So can everyone else. No one has said anything overtly racist that I've seen, but there is a sense that we can't criticise sacrosanct ideological concepts such as privilege or intersectionality, or we are by default racist.

Which is why this isn't ever going to be a productive discussion and it's gone exactly the way that anyone could have been predicted.

The thread is making me think of this. On all sides.
outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/jade-dont-justify-argue-defend-explain

A poor abused white kid will still have an easier time of it than a poor abused black kid though, that's the entire point. Yes both of them will lack privilege in a huge way. But the abused poor black kid will have an extra barrier on top of being poor and abused. Yet no one on this thread appears to be willing to acknowledge that black people also experience poverty and abuse, from reading this thread you'd get the impression all black people are wealthy CEOS!

If you are poor, you are poor and there’s really no ‘easier time of it’. Statistically, black people are more likely to be part of the lowest socio-economic groups than white people but, within those groups themselves, there is no meaningful variation in experiences. There may be extra barriers in terms of getting out of the situation (although statistically, black working class children are more likely to go to university than white working class children) but in terms of the individual’s experience of poverty, speaking of additional barriers is not helpful. You could say ‘the white poor kid doesn’t face racist bullying at school like the black poor kid does’ but what if the white poor kid is also being sexually abused, in which case the balance of the two experiences shifts again. Or what if the black kid is also disabled but has a higher IQ than the white kid. Who becomes more privileged then?

As I said before, privilege only really works as a concept when applied to a whole class. Being in poverty = lacking privilege compared to rest of population. Black people are more likely to experience poverty so lack privilege compared to white people, as a group. However, where two people have both been established as experiencing poverty, any comparison between their experiences is meaningless because they still both lack access to resources and status - ie privilege.

Thanks Quentin. That was an interesting read, and I can see what you're saying. Everyone is talking past each other.

[quote froggygoneacourting]**@MissBarbary quoted my post and said "Froggy's post refers to rural Scotland." It did not. Period. My post had zero to do with Scotland and was not in response to anything about Scotland.

The only reason anyone even mentioned Scotland at all was as some sort of GOTCHA to debunk racism. Because apparently pointing out that some white people experience deprivation proves that white privilege does not exist.

Not everyone agrees that the concept of privilege is universally useful and valuable. People have some quite reasonable objections to it. Some I share, some I don't. I still think it's a valuable concept, just not the be all and end all of everything.

Then post some points you feel prove that white working class boys and black working class boys don't experience significantly differences levels of oppression and deprivation. Trying to compare abused impoverished white children with wealthy black CEOs is an obvious strawman.[/quote]
Sorry but you are wrong
Follow the chain of posting

I first mentioned Scotland in this thread as I regarded it about "white feminism" rather than about racisim
peacefulVistas Tue 27-Apr-21 16:11:54

You posted:
froggywentacourting Wed 28-Apr-21 02:30:08
Mentioning the (hypothetial btw) children in a village

I replied to that point
peacefulVistas Wed 28-Apr-21 13:00:53

MissBarbary replied to me (the post you're so up in arms about)
MissBarbary Wed 28-Apr-21 15:47:01

And I reply to her
peacefulVistas Wed 28-Apr-21 22:27:46

The only reason anyone even mentioned Scotland at all was as some sort of GOTCHA to debunk racism. Because apparently pointing out that some white people experience deprivation proves that white privilege does not exist.

And this is unhelpful hyperbolic nonsense

I found your initial posts to be extremely valuable and thought provoking and I agree that some posts in response have been not been helpful

But you're now arguing about things that haven't been said and are distorting things that have been

As I said before, privilege only really works as a concept when applied to a whole class.

I completely agree and have said this many times on other threads, and I don't think that is how it tends to be used.

@QuentinBunbury

I think we'd move towards more of a productive discussion if people on here (not referring to anyone in particular) didn't dismiss racism or minimise it and actually listened to others After froggys initial post there were many posts saying how good it was. Look, I'm not sure how to demonstrate "listening" on the internet. If we STFU we are accused of ignoring. If we discuss and debate we are accused of dismissing. Its lose lose.

Yes, people did say how good it was, that's true. I was more meaning those who are dismissing and/or minimising though. Seeing as someone asked what could we do to make it more productive? I gave an example.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

As I said before, privilege only really works as a concept when applied to a whole class.

I completely agree and have said this many times on other threads, and I don't think that is how it tends to be used.

Agree. People tend to use it in an individualistic sense and completely in absence of a class analysis and usually without defining the term privilege.

I think women are often subject to higher expectations

Now this I think is actually a brilliant point, and if you don't mind I'd like to continue this side-discussion wrt to my own experiences.

I worked in theatre (and a tiny bit in TV/film) and one thing I've noticed that happens constantly is that the more people show willingness to engage with "diversity", the more pressure and expectations are put on them to sort of "do" every single form of diversity perfectly. Yet the onus to "do diversity" nearly always falls to women (and often also people of colour), when women have relatively little power. It's a huge gender double standard, because white men can make plays or films that are just about white men and no one says a word, but if a woman does then it can't just be a film that has women in it, it also has to perfectly represent the entire spectrum of both race gender and sexuality. (But not disability or class because those two things get left out and overlooked entirely more often than not.)

I keep ranting about It's a Sin, because for every person who criticised It's a Sin for not having lesbian characters or trans characters, ten people lined up to defend RTD and say he should have the freedom to write what he likes. If a woman had written a TV series about gay women with no trans characters, she'd get a thousand death and rape threats.

And that's not specifically about race or white privilege, but it's what I regard as an example of male privilege and why I'd make the argument that male privilege exists, and how different forms of marginalisation intersect with each other when it comes to voice and power.

I worked in theatre (and a tiny bit in TV/film) and one thing I've noticed that happens constantly is that the more people show willingness to engage with "diversity", the more pressure and expectations are put on them to sort of "do" every single form of diversity perfectly. Yet the onus to "do diversity" nearly always falls to women (and often also people of colour), when women have relatively little power. It's a huge gender double standard, because white men can make plays or films that are just about white men and no one says a word, but if a woman does then it can't just be a film that has women in it, it also has to perfectly represent the entire spectrum of both race gender and sexuality. (But not disability or class because those two things get left out and overlooked entirely more often than not.)

Yes, that's an excellent point.

@froggygoneacourting

I've said race is one factor, along with x, y, z, which may be lesser or more important factors depending on the individual situation. Yknow, taking an actual intersectional approach.

So basically exactly what I said upthread?

You haven't read the thread before you joined on page 17(?) have you?

If you are poor you are poor, there is really no "easier time" of it

Oh bullshit. Not having to experience racism on top of everything else is easier. You can try all the whataboutary you like but the simple facts remain. If you are black in the UK you will deal with racism on top of whatever hand life has dealt you and then get told you haven't/ other people have it worse/it's not so bad anyway

Why people on this board of all places cant see the parallels with misogyny is beyond me.

[quote QuentinBunbury]The thread is making me think of this. On all sides.
outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/jade-dont-justify-argue-defend-explain[/quote]
Just read, good points!
It is kind of like that, as in reinforcing biases for example.
Sometimes though you see stuff like blatant racism though and should you just shut up and let it slide, not challenge?
Fully aware that this comment is just reinforcing any biases some may or may not have lol

Stupid question alert though, what's a non PD?

I didn't even think that about It's a Sin, i haven't seen it yet but I know what it's about, and you're totally right that only a man writing a series about gay men would have got away with not being inclusive of other members of the LGBT.

Stupid question alert though, what's a non PD?

non Personality Disorder

Not sure what that's referring to, where are people talking about It's a Sin or LGBT?

@peacefulVistas

Stupid question alert though, what's a non PD?

non Personality Disorder

Ah! Thank you

If you are poor, you are poor and there’s really no ‘easier time of it’.

Well I'm sorry but I simply don't agree. I've lived in poverty - I've lived in poverty as an outsider in the area/community where I was in, and I've lived in poverty as part of the community. Poverty is a hell of a lot easier to handle if you're part of a tight knit community and have support: if the local police know you and treat you okay, if your teachers encourage you, if local shopkeepers know who you are and give you a smile because your mum and your grandmum were both raised there.

Of course this is not specific to race alone. There are plenty of working class white people living in areas where they are treated as outsiders. And of course there are plenty of working class areas like the one I live in that are predominantly black. But race can and does play a part in it.

Imagine living in poverty, but also having to worry about being stopped by the police all the time when you've done nothing wrong. Being shut out from the local community and denied access to communal things. Seeing your mum come home crying because she went to mum&baby group and no one would speak to her because she's the only black woman.
Being followed round by security whenever you go into a shop. Being treated more harshly and given less encouragement at school. And of course potentially having to deal with racial abuse.

If you experience all those things, but you witness other kids who live on your street or go to your school get treated much better and not get any of that hostility and sense of feeling unwelcome and excluded, I'd argue that your life is probably at least a little bit more shit than theirs.

Now maybe they've got other stuff going on. Maybe the white kid down the road has an alcoholic dad who beats him, while you've got great parents. Maybe it's the other way round. People are complex and everyone is an individual.

But to say that race and experiencing racism doesn't make a shitty situation worse, I just don't agree with that.

@Porcupineintherough

If you are poor you are poor, there is really no "easier time" of it

Oh bullshit. Not having to experience racism on top of everything else is easier. You can try all the whataboutary you like but the simple facts remain. If you are black in the UK you will deal with racism on top of whatever hand life has dealt you and then get told you haven't/ other people have it worse/it's not so bad anyway

Why people on this board of all places cant see the parallels with misogyny is beyond me.

How is it helpful to talk about having an ‘easier time’ when we’re talking about people at the very bottom of the class system? Who often don’t have enough to eat or grow up in homes that are abusive or neglectful. Should we tell black poor children that they have an easier time of it than disabled children, who face lots of obstacles just getting around and can’t live independently? Or that both black children and disabled children have it easier than children in care?

What does ‘having it easier’ mean on the level of personal experience? Is it easier to deal with being called names at school than a family member abusing you for instance? I feel exactly the same about male privilege. It’s helpful on a class level, not an individual one. I know that I have significantly more privilege than a homeless man with a drug habit. No, he won’t face sexism but so what when you take into account what else he faces? However, I know that women on average earn less than men and are often disadvantaged by their sex.

Not sure what that's referring to, where are people talking about It's a Sin or LGBT?

It was a derail/side discussion, sorry. Ereshkigalangcleg made an excellent point about society having higher expectations of women and I was just thinking out loud and expanding about that issue.