‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

Statistically, 99% of abused children/boys in Scotland will not be black. They aren't hypothetical any more than the vast majority of rape victims - the ones who never see justice - are hypothetical.

Come to Scotland. Take a tour of our impoverished estates, chat to social workers and teachers dealing with the consequences of deprivation on kids. Chat to the residents about their day to day lives.

Then have a giggle about four yorkshiremen.

Yes, in places like Scotland this isn't really going to be a focus for most people.

The concept of privilege has limited value, and as pp said only at the class/structural level. It should not be the be all and end all. It's an important consideration in social justice movements, but I don't think it should be the only one.

@MorrisZapp

Statistically, 99% of abused children/boys in Scotland will not be black. They aren't hypothetical any more than the vast majority of rape victims - the ones who never see justice - are hypothetical.

Come to Scotland. Take a tour of our impoverished estates, chat to social workers and teachers dealing with the consequences of deprivation on kids. Chat to the residents about their day to day lives.

Then have a giggle about four yorkshiremen.

This smacks of whataboutery though.

I agree with poster who said we are not in church. Identity politics has become a religion, in which you are required to repeat phrases and confess sins. It is just the most recent version of the Protestant tradition.

Of course privilege as a concept is a race to the bottom and an oppression olympics. Its whole purpose is to compare different groups and rank the differences between them. The only perspective it offers is positional.

There is no point in comparing two people in identical positions because we are hardly ever in situations with people in identical positions.

If we are talking about victims of child abuse and neglect, of course the examples should be kept hypothetical wherever possible. And of course examples of abuse are going to be quite distressing and hard to read, because abuse of people is distressing and hard to read, even when only given as statistics.

I mean, all those things are bad if that's what you want me to say, but I'd discuss some real life examples and look for solutions, because I think that would actually be useful. It's productive to have a discussion of white feminism if we can actually name and identify things that can be improved by women on here - and I have also stated that white feminists will have blind spots and in that case it's important WOC are heard. 'White feminism' is often used as a racist, sexist and misogynistic term to shut down women. It also appears to assume all white women are wealthy, manipulate liars who still have the mentality of segregation era racists. Yes, I am offended by that, and yes I am offended that using this expression makes the issues of underprivileged white women invisible - especially when used by privileged white women!

Yes. I don't feel this discussion is particularly productive.

I agree with poster who said we are not in church. Identity politics has become a religion, in which you are required to repeat phrases and confess sins.

Yes.

@Pota2 I’ll be completely honest and say that I’ve got quite mixed feelings on a lot of the Meghan Markle/Piers Morgan/Sharon Osborne/Sheryl Underwood events. In a way I think this one example where I’d rather just not focus at all on what any of this collection of, on net, quite privileged people said or did. I’m not convinced much good can come of it. It just makes me want to eat the rich.

There are undoubtedly abused boys in Scotland, Froggy, as you know. The fact that a hypothetical example was used to make a valid point is irrelevant.

But there was no "valid point" being made. I do not consider the blatantly racist whatabouttery in inventing a hypothetical "abused impoverished white boy with alcoholic parents" (when black kids are equally or more likely to experience all of those things) and then an equally hypothetical "upper middle class educated black CEO" solely with the intention of dismissing racism, to be valid.

I actually, as a working class child abuse survivor, find it pretty morally reprehensible to exploit things like child abuse to score points.

There are plenty of abused boys in countries that are near-universally black.

But there was no "valid point" being made.

That's your opinion. It's not mine.

I'll repeat:

People are perfectly entitled to challenge the ideological concepts of privilege, structural oppression and intersectionality where they see flaws, because that is the subject of this thread.

There is no point in comparing two people in identical positions because we are hardly ever in situations with people in identical positions.

No but comparing white working class boys with black working class boys (when there are plenty of both) is clearly more valid than insisting on only comparing white working class boys with wealthy educated black CEOs.

People are perfectly entitled to challenge the ideological concepts of privilege, structural oppression and intersectionality where they see flaws, because that is the subject of this thread.

And I'm perfectly entitled to say when I think people are behaving like massive goady racists with a deliberate agenda to attack and silence black women, and that I think exploiting child abuse to score points is vile.

I don’t think posters are trying to score points.

From what has been said on here they are discussing how to support people in their own communities and the people that they work with.

Not everyone agrees that the concept of privilege is universally useful and valuable. People have some quite reasonable objections to it. Some I share, some I don't. I still think it's a valuable concept, just not the be all and end all of everything.

TenaciousOnePointOne who popped up to say it's 'nice for me' that I've been a victim of male violence and child abuse)

I thought that was a particularly crass post.

@froggygoneacourting

I made the post MissBarbary is referring to and quoted from and my post absolutely does not refer to rural Scotland in any way. I have no idea what MissBarbary is talking about. It did not refer to Scotland period.

@MissBarbary was replying to me in that post
I made a post (peacefulVistas Wed 28-Apr-21 13:00:53) quoting you about the white child and black child in the village and used specific examples in Scotland I am familiar with to agree with you
BUT pointing out in my experience it's the boys that have the hardest time

But... there is no "abused boy in Scotland." He does not exist. He was invented purely as an abstract hypothetical concept by posters on this thread, as an argument for why white privilege does not exist.

And tbh this bit upsets me a little bit, you've missed all the actual points made in this thrtead about the particular experiences of both white working class women in Scotland and the points I made about the challenges faced by certain poc on schemes.
It's all become twisted and it's making arguments about points that weren't even raised

But hey, despite having the worst life expectancy and social indicators in the whole of Western Europe, we're very used to having our experiences ignored or misapropriated

From what has been said on here they are discussing how to support people in their own communities and the people that they work with.

I don't agree.

The entire reason people re going "but hypothetically an abused impoverished while boy would lead a worse life than a wealthy educated black person, ergo white privilege does not exist" is to point-score and engage in racism-denial.

Again, how would you feel if a man tried to argue that the fact that wealthy powerful women exist proves that sexism and misogyny isn't real?

And tbh this bit upsets me a little bit, you've missed all the actual points made in this thrtead about the particular experiences of both white working class women in Scotland and the points I made about the challenges faced by certain poc on schemes.
It's all become twisted and it's making arguments about points that weren't even raised

Yes, I agree.

I actually, as a working class child abuse survivor, find it pretty morally reprehensible to exploit things like child abuse to score points.
I am too, and I wasn't doing that. You asked about two boys from low income homes one white and one black and asked who was better off? This is far too simplistic, so I mentioned ACEs. Of course, race is one of the factors that will determine the chances in life that child has. I'm not even trying to say which factors will be more important, simply stating that comparison on the basis of race alone is not enough, and I stand by that.

‘No but comparing white working class boys with black working class boys (when there are plenty of both) is clearly more valid than insisting on only comparing white working class boys with wealthy educated black CEOs.’

It depends what point is being made. It has been relevant on this thread to compare the two.

‘Again, how would you feel if a man tried to argue that the fact that wealthy powerful women exist proves that sexism and misogyny isn't real?’

But nobody is claiming that racism isn’t real. They are disagreeing with concepts like white feminism, intersectionality and privilege, which are the topics of the thread.

@MissBarbary quoted my post and said "Froggy's post refers to rural Scotland." It did not. Period. My post had zero to do with Scotland and was not in response to anything about Scotland.

The only reason anyone even mentioned Scotland at all was as some sort of GOTCHA to debunk racism. Because apparently pointing out that some white people experience deprivation proves that white privilege does not exist.

Not everyone agrees that the concept of privilege is universally useful and valuable. People have some quite reasonable objections to it. Some I share, some I don't. I still think it's a valuable concept, just not the be all and end all of everything.

Then post some points you feel prove that white working class boys and black working class boys don't experience significantly differences levels of oppression and deprivation. Trying to compare abused impoverished white children with wealthy black CEOs is an obvious strawman.

Okay I'll re-phrase.

How would you feel if a man tried to argue that the fact that wealthy powerful women exist proves that male privilege does not exist?

It depends what point is being made. It has been relevant on this thread to compare the two.

I agree. People have the right to criticise the concept of privilege in and of itself and point out its flaws. That doesn't make them racist, just because they think it's overrated and overused as a concept.

This thread is a thread about the term "white feminist" and not a general thread about racism. I won't be told by anyone how I can discuss things in a discussion about a term used to dismiss, ignore and smear women, and what is off limits.

I don’t believe in male privilege. I think privilege is an unhelpful way of understanding women’s rights.

Well I don't think the term male privilege is useful either, I think it's a crap term

Then post some points you feel prove that white working class boys and black working class boys don't experience significantly differences levels of oppression and deprivation.

No I won't, because it wasn't my claim. Don't tell me what I should and shouldn't post, on a feminist board thread about a term people use about me.