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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

‘White’ Feminism

999 replies

Sociallydistancedcocktails · 26/04/2021 16:07

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 29/04/2021 09:52

The thread was about the term white feminism specifically, rather than examples of racism perpetuated by white women; though of course the two are connected.

Thank you cake.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 09:52

Fantastic post, cake that says everything I want to say.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 09:53

The fact that systemic racism exists cannot be denied. The fact that individual racist acts exist also cannot be denied.

The broad brush usage of a term like 'white feminism', used in the way that the article posted in the OP used it, is problematic for me as it is with others.

This.

MorrisZapp · 29/04/2021 09:55

Cake says it all for me too.

ATieLikeRichardGere · 29/04/2021 09:57

Yes that was good cake

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 09:57

If you take it so much to heart that you’re a terrible person because you’re white

I don't think I am a terrible person because I'm white. It's a framing I don't agree with, the idea of women crying to manipulate people is a deeply misogynistic trope and upsetting to me as a sufferer of DV whose own tears were dismissed as fake as a DARVO. And that's why I am calling it out.

Pota2 · 29/04/2021 09:58

@cakedays

froggy your experiences of racism are horrendous; the same for everyone else on the thread who's been on the receiving end of racism Flowers

The thread was about the term white feminism specifically, rather than examples of racism perpetuated by white women; though of course the two are connected. I don't have experience of racism, though I want to hear from those who do. I do have experience of people using the term "white feminist", though - mainly to refer to the idea of a past feminism which is not "intersectional" and was written only by white women.

However, that isn't true: it obscures important second wave feminism written by black women which explicitly discusses these issues as far back as the 1950s onwards, so the term also elides a lot of important work written by black women in feminist history. It also tends to get used, in my experience, to characterise any feminism that is interested in the impacts of biological sex on women's experience, childbearing and motherhood, FGM, supporting women to exit prostitution, and similar topics - hence the absurdity of it sometimes being directed at black feminist women too, such as Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie and others as pp have said above.

I can point absolutely to examples of writing by white women which are tone deaf to the lives of black women - the corporate 'lean in' Sheryl Sandberg type - but by and large those aren't serious feminist writers or theorists, though of course they have an impact on the wider culture. They're most often tone deaf to the lives of nearly all women apart from a small number of educated American/Anglophone women.

It might be that we need to know whether "white feminism" represents an actual trend in feminist writing. Or is it a shorthand for "racism by white women"? In which case I would think that isn't feminism per se, though we need a thread on that too so that posters can share their experiences and we can read them.

It might be a term that started out as a way of reorienting feminist objectives to focus more fully on race - however, it has also now become a convenient way for lots of people to dismiss feminist women or feminist concerns more generally, or types of feminism they don't like for whatever reason.

We also ought to be concerned at how easy it is for some people to use it to dismiss black feminists (in an echo of the "Uncle Tom" trope), when they articulate issues of FGM, sex-based rights and maternity rights that impact on black women's bodies; OR any kind of GC/sex-based rights feminism, white or not, which prioritises women's material experiences, the economic impacts of childcare and motherhood, sexual violence and porn. My students are nearly all privileged young white women, but they will also routinely use the term "white feminism" to dismiss any feminism that is concerned with those issues, or is perceived by them as being not "modern" (sex-positive pro-trans pro-porn pro "kink") feminism. Anything that deals with the economic impacts of motherhood, childcare, the damaging and dehumanising effects of pornography, or the subordination of women's bodies to men is regarded automatically as old and boring and not young and sexy and relevant to their lives. That seems to me to be highly counterproductive and just recirculates misogyny.

All this is not to negate the lived experiences of black women. I fully appreciate that "white feminism" is a term that means something specific to them. As a term it's also now escaped that, though, and is routinely used to dismiss women and feminism more broadly - especially when it has been happily co-opted by white men as a stick to beat any women with if they step out of the party line of "approved" thinking (centring men in feminism, etc.). It's in that context that I have experienced it; and ironically it's now used to dismiss a long history of feminist writing by women of all races, as well as individual black women when their concerns don't intersect with those perceived to be the "permitted" forms of contemporary feminism.

These are all issues women should be talking together about. What do you think, for example, of the movement by transactivists to stop women talking about FGM or maternity care because it's "transphobic"? The are issues of huge importance to many women's lives globally, but they are in danger of being systematically erased. What about the impacts on poor women's healthcare of the situation in the NHS? Cuts in funding to DV and refuge services? Disappearance of legal aid? Removal of employment protections? These aren't sexy and exciting topics to most of the young women I've seen talking about "white feminism", but they are of huge importance to women's lives.

👏 👏 👏
froggygoneacourting · 29/04/2021 09:59

I didn't actually invent such a hypothetical.

to dismiss any experiences the abused boy in Scotland has faced.

But... there is no "abused boy in Scotland." He does not exist. He was invented purely as an abstract hypothetical concept by posters on this thread, as an argument for why white privilege does not exist.

The posts on this thread about "abused working class rural Scottish boy with alcoholic parents" are not referring to an actual specific boy.

To make absolutely clear: I am not saying that there are not children living in Scotland who are abused. I'm sure there are many, many abused children in Scotland, just as there are abused children all over the world. I'm merely saying that it's goady to go into a thread about racism and say "but what about working class white kids." And honestly it's just plain weird to see posters outdoing each other in an attempt to create ever-more lurid details for this entirely hypothetical child.

So the first poster says "but what about white working class boys, they don't have privilege so white privilege doesn't exist!" Then when someone points out plenty of working class boys are black, someone else says "but what about white working class boys in areas like rural Scotland, no black boys there!" Then the next person ups the ante with "but what about white working class boys from rural Scotland who are also abused or have an alcoholic parent!"

Christ it's like the Four Yorkshiremen sketch.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 10:01

But... there is no "abused boy in Scotland." He does not exist. He was invented purely as an abstract hypothetical concept by posters on this thread, as an argument for why white privilege does not exist.

There are undoubtedly abused boys in Scotland, Froggy, as you know. The fact that a hypothetical example was used to make a valid point is irrelevant.

Quaagars · 29/04/2021 10:02

Ludicrous to build a concept around what was ultimately a non event.
You think the concept didn't exist before that incident, that it was built around it?
It absolutely did exist.
A non event?
Really? When someone brings their skin colour into an argument, knowing full well what could likely happen if they did, a non event?!
It absolutely is an event as the fact he was black had absolutely fuck all to do with it when she rang up saying "a black man is threatening me."
It only would have been relevant if she was giving a description.
I mean, you don't ring up and automatically say " a white man's threatening me!" do you?
You'd just say a man.
The racism denial and minimising is urgh.

Quaagars · 29/04/2021 10:03

Christ it's like the Four Yorkshiremen sketch.

Grin
Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 10:04

I'm merely saying that it's goady to go into a thread about racism and say "but what about working class white kids."

This is a thread about the term "white feminism" and the various ways in which it is used. People have a range of opinions about this. It is not a general thread about racism. People are perfectly entitled to challenge the ideological concepts of privilege, structural oppression and intersectionality where they see flaws, because that is the subject of this thread.

VladmirsPoutine · 29/04/2021 10:05

Ludicrous to build a concept around what was ultimately a non event.

A non event that sees many Black men killed or worrying for their lives every time they leave the house to go to a shop down the road. Ok. Imagine the privilege someone must have to describe that incident as a "non-event".

VladmirsPoutine · 29/04/2021 10:07

cakedays excellent post!

ATieLikeRichardGere · 29/04/2021 10:10

I don't think I am a terrible person because I'm white. It's a framing I don't agree with, the idea of women crying to manipulate people is a deeply misogynistic trope and upsetting to me as a sufferer of DV whose own tears were dismissed as fake as a DARVO. And that's why I am calling it out.

I’m not saying all white people feel this way, I’m just saying that I think some do, some of the time, and it has consequences. May well not apply to you.

It doesn’t make it any less true that your tears were dismissed either. It is unsurprising to me that a woman’s tears are not believed against a man’s testimony, and it’s awful. I’m sorry that has happened to you. I still think it’s possible that a white woman’s tears could undermine a woman of colour.

And I’m actually trying to change the script a bit there because I don’t think white women or anyone will often just cry to cynically manipulate. Some will, because people do all sort of things. The emotional reason might be something else though. It’s still to be avoided because the effect on woc is the same regardless of the intent. That’s a more general point about racism too - it’s not always something intended, but that doesn’t prevent it from taking place.

Quaagars · 29/04/2021 10:10

The fact that a hypothetical example was used to make a valid point is irrelevant.

That's an interesting take when it's usually "didn't happen, or straw man" argument on here.
(Feel free not to answer, I know you're not engaging)
You don't get to tell people who can and can't comment on your posts though, that's a little bit too echo chamber and don't question me on my opinions

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 10:12

It might be a term that started out as a way of reorienting feminist objectives to focus more fully on race - however, it has also now become a convenient way for lots of people to dismiss feminist women or feminist concerns more generally, or types of feminism they don't like for whatever reason.

We also ought to be concerned at how easy it is for some people to use it to dismiss black feminists (in an echo of the "Uncle Tom" trope), when they articulate issues of FGM, sex-based rights and maternity rights that impact on black women's bodies; OR any kind of GC/sex-based rights feminism, white or not, which prioritises women's material experiences, the economic impacts of childcare and motherhood, sexual violence and porn. My students are nearly all privileged young white women, but they will also routinely use the term "white feminism" to dismiss any feminism that is concerned with those issues, or is perceived by them as being not "modern" (sex-positive pro-trans pro-porn pro "kink") feminism. Anything that deals with the economic impacts of motherhood, childcare, the damaging and dehumanising effects of pornography, or the subordination of women's bodies to men is regarded automatically as old and boring and not young and sexy and relevant to their lives. That seems to me to be highly counterproductive and just recirculates misogyny.

Indeed. I won't be moved from continuing to oppose this framing, whoever it is by. It is not just a term used by black women to critique a particular type of white-focussed feminism, "white feminist" is often a thought terminating slur used by liberal feminists and men, often white, to shut women with unpalatable opinions down. Including women who centre women and girls in their feminism, and exclude males and male sexual rights goals.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 10:15

Some will, because people do all sort of things. The emotional reason might be something else though. It’s still to be avoided because the effect on woc is the same regardless of the intent.

Most people can't avoid crying when they are upset. Whatever the "effect" on others.

QuentinBunbury · 29/04/2021 10:16

Yet I'm regularly told that I should support right wing politicians who are openly racist or even those who endorse white supremacist hate groups, because "they know what a woman is"
I agree totally with this. There are definitely women now calling themselves "feminists" because they support sex based definition of woman. Then they will vote for parties that actively damage womens interests. In my mind these are often middle class women, I suppose that kind of thing could be called "white feminism" in a UK context but I still think that's lazy and offensive to actual feminists who are white

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 10:18

There are definitely women now calling themselves "feminists" because they support sex based definition of woman.

It doesn't help that every woman who supports any sex based rights for women or opposes the medical transition of children is called a "trans exclusionary radical feminist" whether they are objectively feminist or not.

QuentinBunbury · 29/04/2021 10:19

Quite

MimiDaisy11 · 29/04/2021 10:25

I think part of the problem is that whenever women of colour bring up a racism issue, white people feel personally attacked and our response is based on that. Most of the time I don’t think anyone is trying to personally attack us in reality. So I want to understand why we feel so so attacked?

I think there are different issues here. In the Guardian article on white tears the author's first example is that someone said a sentence with the words "white people" and "shit". The author weirdly doesn't say what that sentence was but I gather it was something like "white people are shit". I think that's purposefully confrontational and I'd expect people to get annoyed. It's also not helpful. If I was talking about sexism and I started a talk with "Men are shit" then I'd expect the talk to go badly as men specifically would turn off listening and taking me seriously.

I do agree though that people can get irrationally defensive. It's not specific to racism but to just human nature in general. People don't want to think badly of a group they're in and so try to rationalise certain behaviour.

MorrisZapp · 29/04/2021 10:25

Statistically, 99% of abused children/boys in Scotland will not be black. They aren't hypothetical any more than the vast majority of rape victims - the ones who never see justice - are hypothetical.

Come to Scotland. Take a tour of our impoverished estates, chat to social workers and teachers dealing with the consequences of deprivation on kids. Chat to the residents about their day to day lives.

Then have a giggle about four yorkshiremen.

Pota2 · 29/04/2021 10:27

I still think it’s possible that a white woman’s tears could undermine a woman of colour.

Do you mean if they are completely unprovoked? If so, yes, I agree that if you say something innocuous to someone and they cry and blame you for upsetting them then that’s a problem.

But take the Sharon Osbourne example. She is accused by her friend and co-host Sheryl Underwood of being racist because she won’t ‘call out’ Piers Morgan over Meghan Markle. Sharon quite rightly answers back and Sheryl starts to cry. Sharon says ‘don’t you dare start crying’ but is then accused of being a bully. How is Sheryl not weaponising her own tears there? Why can she cry but Sharon can’t defend herself? Sheryl then lies to the press saying that Sharon never contacted her to apologise when Sharon has messages that she did. Yet Sharon is the racist in all this and epitomises white fragility.

In the pile-on I referred to above, the person targeted had people sending her death threats, people writing to her employer asking for her to be sacked and was called a Nazi and a racist. Yet, she was accused of crying white tears when she objected to what she had been labelled as.

Novelusername · 29/04/2021 10:30

froggygoneacourting
I have explicitly said that white privilege exists, that's not what I'm questioning. What I'm questioning is the usefulness of taking up isolated cases of race crimes in the USA, or any other USA cultural phenomena, and claiming that this is also a phenomena in the UK when our culture is completely different. I asked you a few questions about your original post (and also TenaciousOnePointOne who popped up to say it's 'nice for me' that I've been a victim of male violence and child abuse) where you listed your experiences on MN, because I'd rather discuss those. Neither of you answered. Real examples are useful, rather than made up hypotheticals about identical white and black working class boys (which frankly doesn't happen, nobody leads identical lives), white female American CEOs being promoted and crowing it's for the good of all women (which is a bit niche and not something most British women will know anything about) or white women in America and Australia getting WOC in trouble at work. I mean, all those things are bad if that's what you want me to say, but I'd discuss some real life examples and look for solutions, because I think that would actually be useful. It's productive to have a discussion of white feminism if we can actually name and identify things that can be improved by women on here - and I have also stated that white feminists will have blind spots and in that case it's important WOC are heard. 'White feminism' is often used as a racist, sexist and misogynistic term to shut down women. It also appears to assume all white women are wealthy, manipulate liars who still have the mentality of segregation era racists. Yes, I am offended by that, and yes I am offended that using this expression makes the issues of underprivileged white women invisible - especially when used by privileged white women!

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