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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

‘White’ Feminism

999 replies

Sociallydistancedcocktails · 26/04/2021 16:07

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

OP posts:
Pota2 · 29/04/2021 09:27

@Quaagars

Oh and their denial that men can be women means that they also don’t think black women are real women.

Who the actual fuck has said anything like that?!
Wonder if eresh jumps in on that bit for being too vague, or insinuating....

Who has said that? Join Twitter, mate. That argument is trotted out daily. Or join academia where it is also repeated in various iterations all the time. So many TRAs use this: you can’t be a feminist if you don’t put trans women front and centre because that also means that you don’t support black women.
MorrisZapp · 29/04/2021 09:29

White tears is a vile and degrading concept. Women cry ffs. We all do. Now crying is racist? This is where American identity politics ends up, putting natural allies at unease with each other and creating multiple, unfathomable layers of victimhood where none are needed in an attempt to make everything impenetrable and unquestionable.

It's a dirty, shoddy trick and I am not taken in. Who benefits when we turn on each other? Not you and not me, that's for sure.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 09:30

Who has said that? Join Twitter, mate. That argument is trotted out daily.

Indeed. It's also entirely relevant to why "white feminism" is framed in such a problematic way.

Quaagars · 29/04/2021 09:31

We're on MN.
Mate.
Eresh will no doubt tell you stop insinuating things that haven't been said on here.
(Even though I was commenting on posts and attitudes on here, both on this very thread, and past threads)
It's seemingly A OK to go off and insinuate stuff if we want to talk about trans people, or the other bit I'm seriously not typing out again.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 09:31

White tears is a vile and degrading concept.

"White women's tears", specifically.

Quaagars · 29/04/2021 09:31

Women cry ffs. We all do. Now crying is racist?

Nobody has said crying is racist. for crying out loud (excuse pun)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 09:35

This is where American identity politics ends up, putting natural allies at unease with each other and creating multiple, unfathomable layers of victimhood where none are needed in an attempt to make everything impenetrable and unquestionable.

Yes, and frequently the pot is stirred by bad actors, especially on social media, who are only interested in causing trouble, fostering division, and isolating those whose opinions they do not share.

That's how bots operate and how public opinion can be manipulate by these bad actors. I recommend the film "the Social Dilemma".

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 09:36

*can be manipulated

VladmirsPoutine · 29/04/2021 09:36

White tears is a vile and degrading concept. Women cry ffs. We all do. Now crying is racist?

Crying isn't racist. But it's a rather crass, if you will, term to describe white women who weaponise their femininity - sort a 'damsel in distress' call which regardless if they are the aggressor in a situation means that they will invariably be seen as the victim. Imagine two women in a work place setting - one Black and one White who have a disagreement over something, white woman cries and black woman is thus reprimanded for being 'aggressive' having 'too much attitude'. That sort of thing. Image Amy - in NY central park. Though she didn't cry she knew exactly what she was doing by calling the cops and telling them that an "African American male is threatening me and my dog". Were it not for his camera footage and had the cops arrived like an armed militia we'd have been none the wiser.

froggygoneacourting · 29/04/2021 09:36

Class is largely what brings about these privileges and yes, some white lads on a council estate don’t face racism but so what?

No, class is one form of privilege. Race is another. Sex is yet another. Disability status is yet another. All four of these things, plus many others, intersect with each other and each individual person's combination dictates what level of systemic privilege or disprivilege they will experience in their lives. That is the literal definition of "intersectionality." Class is not less important than race, but neither is it more important.

And again, why this obsession with acting as though working class people are all white? Trying to reframe the entire privilege debate as being poor working class whites vs wealthy educated middle class black people? Why does no one ever say "what about poor black lads on a council estate"?

Once again: the entire point of white privilege is to explore and acknowledge that white people do not suffer additional barriers due to race compared to people of colour *from identical backgrounds and in identical circumstances." Meaning if you compare a working class impoverished black boy to an impoverished working class white boy, the black boy is statistically far more likely to be excluded from school, suffer harsher punishments at school for the same minor misbehaviour, more likely to be stopped by the police, more likely to be arrested, more likely to receive a harsh sentence for the same crimes, less likely to be supported in school, less likely to go to university, more likely to be denied adequate medical treatment, is likely to earn a lower salary, and is less likely to be promoted regardless of the quality of his work.

Is racism in the feminist community more likely than in the general population, probably not.
No, but I've not seen anyone suggest it is. That's not what anyone is saying. The question is not "are people in the feminist community more racist than the general population" the question is "are some people within the feminist community racist" - the answer is unquestionably yes. But this very simple statement gets people's backs up like crazy.

Or is the question is any white feminist automatically a White Feminist. And Automatically racist.
No of course not. Plenty of feminists who happen to be white are not White Feminists. Plenty of white women are not racist.

Penis havers who talk about “white feminism” are being misogynistic, trying to derail productive feminist conversations, and should be ignored. On an anonymous message board just apply this rule to anyone you suspect of being a penis-haver who’s just bringing up the topic to have a go at women.
But it isn't "penis havers", it's actual black women. The problem with your policy is that makes it very easy for anyone with a racist agenda to attack and dismiss black women, and to punish black women for sharing their experience of racism, by accusing them of being a "penis haver." I've never been accused of secretly being a man but I have been accused of being a paid PR plant hired by Meghan Markle, a PR bot hired by the Labour Party, and a PR bot hired by the Conservative Party. (Even though I have 6 years+ posts on MN and have a zillion posts discussing my experiences of peri, heavy periods, adult acne, chin hair, etc. etc.)

VladmirsPoutine · 29/04/2021 09:38

It happens not as infrequently as one would imagine. A white woman once cried in some kind of 'diversity' training as she couldn't deal with being called 'racist'. Thing is nobody was actually calling her racist, the training was designed to highlight unequal power dynamics within various groups - among them how white women can be allies but will ultimately use their whiteness when it suits them.

MorrisZapp · 29/04/2021 09:40

Somebody linked an article which claimed that white women weaponise their tears to victimise black people.

In a world where men are shooting, killing and kneeling on black people there is space for criticising women for crying. Of course there is. Because misogyny just never dies.

Quaagars · 29/04/2021 09:41

Crying isn't racist. But it's a rather crass, if you will, term to describe white women who weaponise their femininity - sort a 'damsel in distress' call which regardless if they are the aggressor in a situation means that they will invariably be seen as the victim. Imagine two women in a work place setting - one Black and one White who have a disagreement over something, white woman cries and black woman is thus reprimanded for being 'aggressive' having 'too much attitude'. That sort of thing. Image Amy - in NY central park. Though she didn't cry she knew exactly what she was doing by calling the cops and telling them that an "African American male is threatening me and my dog". Were it not for his camera footage and had the cops arrived like an armed militia we'd have been none the wiser.

Exactly this - like I said, it's a type of behaviour more than anything.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 09:42

A white woman once cried in some kind of 'diversity' training as she couldn't deal with being called 'racist'. Thing is nobody was actually calling her racist, the training was designed to highlight unequal power dynamics within various groups - among them how white women can be allies but will ultimately use their whiteness when it suits them.

I'm sorry, I just think, as do others, that these clumsy attempts to foster cooperation do more harm than they solve. I don't think it's helpful to start from a basis of saying that white women cry to manipulate people. I think it's misogynistic. Pp have made some good posts about why they hold that opinion.

Pota2 · 29/04/2021 09:42

If it genuinely was the case that white women’s tears made sure they were automatically believed, I think the rape conviction rate would be somewhat higher in this country. If anything, women tend to be disbelieved when reporting rape or sexual assault, no matter what the race of the alleged attacker. They may be slightly more likely to be believed if they are white but I think social class probably plays a larger part (eg the girls in the Rotherham scandal were white but were disbelieved due to their background).

Amy Cooper behaved despicably but the idea that the man in question would have been shot dead by the police if he hadn’t filmed their encounter is actually pure conjecture.

midgedude · 29/04/2021 09:43

I think froggy you have been wrote careful in your language , so that it's clear you are not assuming all British white feminists are racist , but the OP and some others could easily be interpreted that way

And of course it's easier to respond to the stirrers than those who are trying to progress discussion usefully .., I will try harder

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 09:43

If it genuinely was the case that white women’s tears made sure they were automatically believed, I think the rape conviction rate would be somewhat higher in this country. If anything, women tend to be disbelieved when reporting rape or sexual assault, no matter what the race of the alleged attacker. They may be slightly more likely to be believed if they are white but I think social class probably plays a larger part (eg the girls in the Rotherham scandal were white but were disbelieved due to their background).

Exactly.

froggygoneacourting · 29/04/2021 09:44

Yes definitely. They are not a fucking subset of women, as the TRAs always imply that they are. Oh and it’s always black women used as examples - never Chinese women, white women, or Latina women. And many of those who talk about White Feminism nearly always bring it round to trans rights and sex worker rights. Sorry but why the fuck is the primary concern for black women whether some bearded over-privileged white dude can call himself a woman because he wears a dress?

Exactly. I completely agree.

I consider myself GC but I really don't care that much about trans issues. I care about it in theory, but I have more pressing concerns that have to do with being biracial and working class.

Yet I'm regularly told that I should support right wing politicians who are openly racist or even those who endorse white supremacist hate groups, because "they know what a woman is"; or that anti-racism is wrong because caring about racism is "woke" and being pro-trans is also "woke" ergo if you are against racism you are also against women's rights (an argument that acts as though you can't be black and also be a woman); or that black women shouldn't call out racism within the feminist community because it's "divisive."

Really really sick of trans issues being used as a bludgeon to attack and silence women of colour.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 09:45

I'm sure we all have pressing concerns. Its probably best not to assume the background and personal circumstances of whole swathes of people on a talk board. It's what some people choose to prioritise.

Quaagars · 29/04/2021 09:47

Nobody has assumed anything about anyone's background though?
Just saying their views, and their experiences.
Seriously, are you reading the same thread Confused

ATieLikeRichardGere · 29/04/2021 09:48

I’ve not heard of Alison Phipps but if she has really said those things then even as a white tears believer for me that’s taking it too far!

I don’t expect anyone to come with me on this but my personal theory on people adopting crazy extreme positions like this (if this is really her position) is that it has partly to do with the void of whiteness and self esteem issues of white people. If you take it so much to heart that you’re a terrible person because you’re white, then you can end up adopting extreme positions in order to try to either atone or, especially in my view, elevate yourself as a different or special white person.

I think this is probably really unhelpful for everyone.

cakedays · 29/04/2021 09:49

froggy your experiences of racism are horrendous; the same for everyone else on the thread who's been on the receiving end of racism Flowers

The thread was about the term white feminism specifically, rather than examples of racism perpetuated by white women; though of course the two are connected. I don't have experience of racism, though I want to hear from those who do. I do have experience of people using the term "white feminist", though - mainly to refer to the idea of a past feminism which is not "intersectional" and was written only by white women.

However, that isn't true: it obscures important second wave feminism written by black women which explicitly discusses these issues as far back as the 1950s onwards, so the term also elides a lot of important work written by black women in feminist history. It also tends to get used, in my experience, to characterise any feminism that is interested in the impacts of biological sex on women's experience, childbearing and motherhood, FGM, supporting women to exit prostitution, and similar topics - hence the absurdity of it sometimes being directed at black feminist women too, such as Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie and others as pp have said above.

I can point absolutely to examples of writing by white women which are tone deaf to the lives of black women - the corporate 'lean in' Sheryl Sandberg type - but by and large those aren't serious feminist writers or theorists, though of course they have an impact on the wider culture. They're most often tone deaf to the lives of nearly all women apart from a small number of educated American/Anglophone women.

It might be that we need to know whether "white feminism" represents an actual trend in feminist writing. Or is it a shorthand for "racism by white women"? In which case I would think that isn't feminism per se, though we need a thread on that too so that posters can share their experiences and we can read them.

It might be a term that started out as a way of reorienting feminist objectives to focus more fully on race - however, it has also now become a convenient way for lots of people to dismiss feminist women or feminist concerns more generally, or types of feminism they don't like for whatever reason.

We also ought to be concerned at how easy it is for some people to use it to dismiss black feminists (in an echo of the "Uncle Tom" trope), when they articulate issues of FGM, sex-based rights and maternity rights that impact on black women's bodies; OR any kind of GC/sex-based rights feminism, white or not, which prioritises women's material experiences, the economic impacts of childcare and motherhood, sexual violence and porn. My students are nearly all privileged young white women, but they will also routinely use the term "white feminism" to dismiss any feminism that is concerned with those issues, or is perceived by them as being not "modern" (sex-positive pro-trans pro-porn pro "kink") feminism. Anything that deals with the economic impacts of motherhood, childcare, the damaging and dehumanising effects of pornography, or the subordination of women's bodies to men is regarded automatically as old and boring and not young and sexy and relevant to their lives. That seems to me to be highly counterproductive and just recirculates misogyny.

All this is not to negate the lived experiences of black women. I fully appreciate that "white feminism" is a term that means something specific to them. As a term it's also now escaped that, though, and is routinely used to dismiss women and feminism more broadly - especially when it has been happily co-opted by white men as a stick to beat any women with if they step out of the party line of "approved" thinking (centring men in feminism, etc.). It's in that context that I have experienced it; and ironically it's now used to dismiss a long history of feminist writing by women of all races, as well as individual black women when their concerns don't intersect with those perceived to be the "permitted" forms of contemporary feminism.

These are all issues women should be talking together about. What do you think, for example, of the movement by transactivists to stop women talking about FGM or maternity care because it's "transphobic"? The are issues of huge importance to many women's lives globally, but they are in danger of being systematically erased. What about the impacts on poor women's healthcare of the situation in the NHS? Cuts in funding to DV and refuge services? Disappearance of legal aid? Removal of employment protections? These aren't sexy and exciting topics to most of the young women I've seen talking about "white feminism", but they are of huge importance to women's lives.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 09:49

Quagaars, I'm not going to engage with you. Please do me the courtesy of not addressing me further.

Helleofabore · 29/04/2021 09:49

@Ereshkigalangcleg

This is a thread, in FWR, about the term "white feminism". That is what people are discussing. You are trying to make out that people were asked to discuss racism in general. It is possible for people both to abhor racism yet still find the term "white feminism" deeply problematic in the way it is used for a whole variety of reasons, that have already discussed, in the 500 or so posts, mostly not made by you. This thread is about everyone's experience of that term. You have your view, I have mine. Other people have a different one. Not everyone has to agree.
I think you are getting to the heart of the issue.

The fact that systemic racism exists cannot be denied. The fact that individual racist acts exist also cannot be denied.

The broad brush usage of a term like 'white feminism', used in the way that the article posted in the OP used it, is problematic for me as it is with others.

MorrisZapp · 29/04/2021 09:49

@Pota2

If it genuinely was the case that white women’s tears made sure they were automatically believed, I think the rape conviction rate would be somewhat higher in this country. If anything, women tend to be disbelieved when reporting rape or sexual assault, no matter what the race of the alleged attacker. They may be slightly more likely to be believed if they are white but I think social class probably plays a larger part (eg the girls in the Rotherham scandal were white but were disbelieved due to their background).

Amy Cooper behaved despicably but the idea that the man in question would have been shot dead by the police if he hadn’t filmed their encounter is actually pure conjecture.

This. It's laughable to imagine that my tinkly tears bring all the big strong policemen to the yard. The rape conviction rate in Scotland has never been lower. Many commentators consider rape to be effectively decriminalised at this point. I can cry myself hoarse, it won't put a man in jail.

One daft cow in a park in New York, nope. Ludicrous to build a concept around what was ultimately a non event. I see worse behaviour on the streets of Edinburgh regularly.