‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

The thread got derailed by the article about "white tears" and I believe nice was specifically talking about that rather than racism.
And I have to say I agree, I find "white tears" a misogynistic concept in the UK context and I don't see why we can't say that.

I do think the dominance of US racial discourse is a problem because the context in the US is different. Its similar in a feminist context to thinking the problems women face in the west are applicable globally.

I think the notion of privilege is quite difficult because it’s rarely experienced as a privilege by those who hold it. We take it for granted. The expectation by some that people who have privilege should shut up, not apply for jobs or put less privileged people first is quite unrealistic in terms of human behaviour. We don’t tend to act altruistically. The focus needs to come off the individual and be about what the state and institutions can do and that is going to be things like quotas. I can’t see anything else really working. A working class white male who is unemployed and has an alcohol problem is not going to see himself as privileged (and nor is he, other than on a very abstract level).

There is also a lack of definition of what we are talking about here. What is privilege? Is it access to high paying jobs? Material wealth? Education? Status? Because talking about privilege in the absence of class is meaningless then. Class is largely what brings about these privileges and yes, some white lads on a council estate don’t face racism but so what? They face so many other issues that prevent them from obtaining material resources that it doesn’t really matter whether or not they face racism. They still aren’t going to access wealth, jobs or education. And when we have figures showing that those with the least chance of access to education are not BAME children but working class/poor children generally, how do we continue to talk of privileges that white children have when these don’t materialise into anything tangible?

All these hierarchies of privilege can offer is a very crude overview on a large scale. It says absolutely nothing about individual experiences but many critical theorists imply that it does. A person’s personal life doesn’t become easier or better solely by belonging to a category of privilege. Adverse life events such as sexual abuse or illness can have a devastating impact on a person, rendering them almost unable to function. In terms of how someone experiences their own life and place in society, individual experiences are far more likely to be instrumental.

I believe there is structural racism and sexism and ableism and ageism. Of course there is. But I just wonder why there is a flat out denial that class plays any role here or why people like Meghan Markle or Afua Hirsch are presented as role models for the oppressed solely on the basis of skin colour when they have both had enormous privilege and MM at least has substantial personal wealth.

All these hierarchies of privilege can offer is a very crude overview on a large scale. It says absolutely nothing about individual experiences but many critical theorists imply that it does.

Yes, this is my issue, and for me that is the subject of this thread, whatever other people think it's about.

Privilege is only a useful concept in a class-based analysis.

I brought up white tears because I think it is linked to the idea of white feminism, because it’s one example of why women of colour don’t necessarily feel like we are all ready to work together on feminism.

The author of the article Ruby Hamad is Australian. She said that when the article was published in the UK she got a lot of backlash and had to shut down her Twitter but got support when it was subsequently published in the US.

Having lived in the US and UK, my personal opinion is that it’s fair to recognise that racism operates differently in each place but obviously is present in both. So maybe what we need to do in the UK is spend more time knowing how it operates here, and then we won’t need to import ideas that don’t work so well.

I think part of the problem is that whenever women of colour bring up
a racism issue, white people feel personally attacked and our response is based on that. Most of the time I don’t think anyone is trying to personally attack us in reality. So I want to understand why we feel so so attacked? Because I do think that any arising white tears might not only be linked to a goal of manipulation, but also to feeling attacked and like we are being accused of some original sin that we can’t possibly atone for. I’m trying to take it as this instead - if I get accused of doing something wrong, I’m only being accused of that specific thing. It doesn’t mean I’m being told that I’m irredeemably the worst in all ways and I still don’t believe that about myself. Of course, for women of colour the intentions don’t actually matter, it’s the effect that matters, so I’m only really trying to have the conversation about why the crying might happen with white women, in case it helps us.

I feel like the fastest way to get over this impasse and then be able to also focus on the many other feminist issues that need dealing with is to just try to accept what women of colour are saying. Maybe even just accept it when we don’t quite fully believe it or understand it? Because what’s the worst that could happen by doing that?

If the thread is about

Can women be feminist and racist at the same time , well yes.
Is racism in the feminist community more likely than in the general population, probably not. That would have to be the case for white feminism to be a real thing I think

Or is feminist theory and action racist, well much has developed in western society so yes probably by omission, as it will reflect the concerns and difficulties of the people involved , although I suspect a stronger case could be made that classism was the actual problem. the only place I have ever seen Intersectional issues raised is on this board .

Or is the question is any white feminist automatically a White Feminist. And Automatically racist. Well that's just plain misogynistic racism

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If I give Amy Cooper as an example, going by past threads and comments it'll be a case of the bloke was being threatening because he asked her to put a dog on a lead?

Stop insinuating that that is what I and other posters think.

Did I say you? I said past threads and comments on here. Why take it so personally, if it doesn't apply to you, it doesn't apply to you, does it

I said past threads and comments on here.

I think it's a nasty thing for you to insinuate, without any evidence at all, about people on the thread, me or anyone else. But hardly surprising, given "past threads and comments".

Also get a dictionary and look up the meaning of the word "insinuate".

I've been commenting on posts on this thread and referring to other posters, not you, so not sure why you're jumping in all indignant as if I mean you?
Oh and no, I don't need a dictionary, thanks

I think the notion of privilege is quite difficult because it’s rarely experienced as a privilege by those who hold it. We take it for granted. The expectation by some that people who have privilege should shut up, not apply for jobs or put less privileged people first is quite unrealistic in terms of human behaviour. We don’t tend to act altruistically. The focus needs to come off the individual and be about what the state and institutions can do and that is going to be things like quotas. I can’t see anything else really working. A working class white male who is unemployed and has an alcohol problem is not going to see himself as privileged (and nor is he, other than on a very abstract level).

I think this is a really constructive and honest way of looking at it. Better than promoting misogynistic tropes about how some women's tears mean they shouldn't be believed, which is as people have said, MRA/abuser logic.

White feminism IS racism

I dunno. What is the difference between a white feminist and white feminism then? I think the argument is more about the phrase “white feminism” and whether it’s been overused to dismiss and derail.

A bit like the accusation of islamophobia or transphobia or even misogyny. Of course these things exist but they are overused as insults.

I suppose the question is what does a good white feminist do and say?

The white tears thing is weird too. Tears and upset are a natural human emotion when someone feels attacked. Notably, it’s especially attributed to women. Men don’t tend to get accused of white tears.

I recently saw an online pile-on that an acquaintance experienced. She is white and had said something relatively ill-judged online, certainly nothing offensive, that she then tried to defend before admitting she was wrong. Her main detractors were women of colour and the fact that she argued back against them meant that she was accused of being a white supremacist and crying white tears. Neither accusation is remotely true but it was interesting that the behaviour was judged entirely differently depending on who was speaking.

I also recall Lindsay Shepherd, the grad student who was interrogated by two bully-boy professors who accused her of transphobia. In the face of their behaviour, she started to cry and was also accused of white tears. I definitely think there is a misogynistic overtone and it’s usually used to obscure the fact that the person crying has just been subjected to a nasty attack or accusations that they are now expected to simply take on the chin without defending themselves. I think that if you want to call someone a nazi, expect them to possibly get upset by it, despite occupying a more privileged position in whatever hierarchy you are using. Getting upset is a totally normal reaction.

without any evidence at all about people on the thread
If you care to read the thread, you don't even need to go that far back to get
Convince me!
Etc etc (see Froggys post which explains it well)
It's all there if you bother to look.

I definitely think there is a misogynistic overtone and it’s usually used to obscure the fact that the person crying has just been subjected to a nasty attack or accusations that they are now expected to simply take on the chin without defending themselves. I think that if you want to call someone a nazi, expect them to possibly get upset by it, despite occupying a more privileged position in whatever hierarchy you are using. Getting upset is a totally normal reaction.

I completely agree. This is often about people's emotions. There is a sense that some people's emotional outbursts are justified and others' not. I really don't think overanalysing individual people's probably genuine emotional responses (we are supposed to believe people, right?) is constructive or helpful in any way.

Also, many of the people talking about White Feminism are white themselves and use this discourse to slander their opponents.
It’s also frequently deployed when talking about gender critical feminism. All TERFs are white middle class ladies hysterical at the thought of sharing a bathroom with transwomen apparently. Oh and their denial that men can be women means that they also don’t think black women are real women. Except that totally ignores and marginalised the many women of colour involved in and leading the movement. Allison Bailey, Raquel Rosari-Sanchez, Linda Bellos, Keira Bell. All ignored because they don’t fit the stereotype. White women tell women of colour that they can only be accepted if they toe the line on trans issues. Globally, far more women of colour face overt sex-based discrimination than white women do, eg forced marriage, FGM, period huts. Yet the white-led TRA movement has twisted things to such an extent that it’s now seen as being white supremacist to oppose FGM, which is totally mind-blowing.

Oh and their denial that men can be women means that they also don’t think black women are real women.

It's also disgustingly misogynistic and racist about black women in and of itself. Black women are female like any other female person.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I definitely think there is a misogynistic overtone and it’s usually used to obscure the fact that the person crying has just been subjected to a nasty attack or accusations that they are now expected to simply take on the chin without defending themselves. I think that if you want to call someone a nazi, expect them to possibly get upset by it, despite occupying a more privileged position in whatever hierarchy you are using. Getting upset is a totally normal reaction.

I completely agree. This is often about people's emotions. There is a sense that some people's emotional outbursts are justified and others' not. I really don't think overanalysing individual people's probably genuine emotional responses (we are supposed to believe people, right?) is constructive or helpful in any way.

Yes, eg Sharon Osbourne being told that she is racist because she is sticking up for Piers Morgan not liking Meghan Markle. What the fuck do you expect? She can think what she likes and what’s with this mandate that we must all be hugely supportive of Meghan Markle and believe everything she says, lest we be thought of as racist? I wasn’t a fan of hers from the outset (not a RF fan either) and it has absolutely zero to do with her skin colour.

The white tears thing is weird too. Tears and upset are a natural human emotion when someone feels attacked. Notably, it’s especially attributed to women. Men don’t tend to get accused of white tears.

Being upset and the concept of white tears are two different things, I think - of course people can get upset and it has nothing to do with racism.
White tears is more of a behaviour, rather than the fact you're white.
Amy Cooper is a perfect example of weaponising skin colour (yes, I know it's not in this country before anyone starts)
it's still a perfect example though.
I'm a bit if people (in general, not referring to any one poster) take offence and pick apart the wording or the phrase rather than think about the actions themselves.

Oh and their denial that men can be women means that they also don’t think black women are real women.

Who the actual fuck has said anything like that?!
Wonder if eresh jumps in on that bit for being too vague, or insinuating....

Penis havers who talk about “white feminism” are being misogynistic, trying to derail productive feminist conversations, and should be ignored. On an anonymous message board just apply this rule to anyone you suspect of being a penis-haver who’s just bringing up the topic to have a go at women.

YY.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Oh and their denial that men can be women means that they also don’t think black women are real women.

It's also disgustingly misogynistic and racist about black women in and of itself. Black women are female like any other female person.

Yes definitely. They are not a fucking subset of women, as the TRAs always imply that they are. Oh and it’s always black women used as examples - never Chinese women, white women, or Latina women.

And many of those who talk about White Feminism nearly always bring it round to trans rights and sex worker rights. Sorry but why the fuck is the primary concern for black women whether some bearded over-privileged white dude can call himself a woman because he wears a dress? Do they not realise how offensive that is. How does it help black women if pimps and Johns have free rein? It’s so insulting to suggest that it does.

If you want a total rage attack, read Me Not You by Alison Phipps. In it, she attacks rape survivors of crying white tears if they report their rapes to the police. Apparently she didn’t report her own assault because she realised that her attacker was more ‘marginalised’ than her and she didn’t want to expose him/her to the justice system. Fuck the fuck off with that shit. Oh and Phipps is white and middle class but that’s totally okay because she is speaking for the marginalised women (but only those who say that men are women of course).

She can think what she likes and what’s with this mandate that we must all be hugely supportive of Meghan Markle and believe everything she says, lest we be thought of as racist?

I agree. I'm also not a fan of her, though I think she probably has received poor treatment from the Royal Family.

you want a total rage attack, read Me Not You by Alison Phipps. In it, she attacks rape survivors of crying white tears if they report their rapes to the police. Apparently she didn’t report her own assault because she realised that her attacker was more ‘marginalised’ than her and she didn’t want to expose him/her to the justice system. Fuck the fuck off with that shit. Oh and Phipps is white and middle class but that’s totally okay because she is speaking for the marginalised women (but only those who say that men are women of course).

Yes, I've read extracts on Twitter. I despise Alison Phipps and elite "feminists" like her.

Oh, see has already commented.
As you were then, has unsurprisingly agreed.
Do you not see the sheer hypocrisy and double standards of your post?!
I was referring to actual comments on this post, and actual comments from posts that minimised or dismissed.
Someone goes off on a random tangent about trans people, and black women not being real women just.....
(I feel nauseous just typing that, seriously)
and you just yep and agree and throw in misogyny too when no-one has mentioned it anywhere.
There's no words.
Seriously.