‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

“For example , you think that race as well as sex has restricted your opportunity”

I’m not sure saying that all.

In my case, I’ve faced racism by white women. But support from white men.

And I have’t been held back. Far from it.
Thank fuck I haven’t relied on the ‘sisterhood’ for help 😊

Although there is always an argument that we find reasonable excuses to disregard a book that you might find uncomfortable

Again you are taking things down to the individual level

I mean you have found specific white women unhelpful and in that basis you want to say that any group of white women are aweful ?

Try harder

@midgedude

Again you are taking things down to the individual level

I mean you have found specific white women unhelpful and in that basis you want to say that any group of white women are aweful ?

Try harder

What do you want?😃 I was asked for individual experience and I provided it.

I did a search and it seems it is a wider, shared experience and I shared an article on it.

If you want to listen, do. If you want to ignore go ahead. It makes no difference, I’m not looking for help, simply sharing thoughts

@midgedude

Although there is always an argument that we find reasonable excuses to disregard a book that you might find uncomfortable

yep, I can imagine. That is not the case here, I just thought it was shit.

See feminism isn't about racism

race plus sex but not pure race issue

So looking for sisterhood to help you solve pure race issues is pointless

And accusing women in particular of racism really needs evidence

Promoting intersectionality is a kind of weird situation where we are meant to listen to high powered women’s issues as if they are more comprehensible than forced marriage.

I have no clue what it is like to deal with prejudice in a high powered job because I have never had one and am never going to. I can far more easily imagine forced marriage than being a CEO.

But because of standpoint theory I am supposed to understand the situation of people more privileged than me but find the situation of actually oppressed women totally alien. It just means we end up talking more and more about people at the top and less about people at the bottom.

I would encourage the OP to start a new thread (or several) where she can describe the specific issues she wants to discuss, I'm sure most would be willing to listen and be supportive. We can't demonstrate listening and being supportive so well when presented with just a list telling us different ways in which to shut up. A list of instructions on how white women should do feminism, from a presumably middle class American Latinx student is always going to have something lost in translation for a British readership anyway. I don't think vague generalisations are helpful in trying to improve the lot of women, better to deal with specifics.

@Novelusername

I've just looked up the author of the article, Kyli Rodriguez-Caro. She's in the first year of doing a Bsc in Psychology at Northeastern University, Boston USA, which suggests she's very young and probably at least middle class. Did she have a white, British, underprivileged woman from a shithole town who has been violently and sexually abused in mind when she wrote this article, I wonder? Does she even know that women like me exist? Does she need to check her privilege, perhaps? Nothing against her personally, but it goes to show how reductive this kind of 'intersectional' thinking is, and how American narratives on race and race relations don't necessarily translate to other countries. Kyli describes herself as 'Latinx' a demographic that doesn't even exist in any significant numbers in the UK, so the perspective she's speaking from isn't inclusive of any common experience of British women, white or otherwise. I don't like being told to shut up on account of my skin colour by Americans who have no experience or knowledge of the situation in the UK, which is vastly different to the USA.

I don't think you need to look across the pond to be critical of this. It is not like the US hasn't any poor whites from shit-hole towns, or Harvard educated middle class blacks. This is something that I've heard both John McWhorter, and Alolph Reed, from different ends of the political spectrum, talk about.

This is an interesting read on intersectionality of sex and race for woc in the workplace.

And to the pp, sex and race are inextricably linked for woc. It is not one or the other in isolation. That’s the naive perspective of ‘white feminism’ . 😊
www.google.com/amp/s/hbr.org/amp/2019/07/do-your-diversity-efforts-reflect-the-experiences-of-women-of-color

Quote
In a previous job, Minda Harts corrected her manager who was celebrating the company for “having the most diverse leadership across the country in our industry.” When Harts, now an assistant adjunct professor at New York University, pointed out that their organization shouldn’t be celebrating their diversity numbers just yet — all their leaders were white men and white women — her manager was visibly annoyed.

Harts recalls that her manager made her feel like she was wrong for even bringing it up. “Many senior leaders are not comfortable talking about race and they are doing their talent a disservice by ignoring racial equity in the workplace,” says Harts, author of The Memo: What Women of Color Need to Know to Secure a Seat at the Table.

SmokedDuck that's true, but the fact that she's probably never set foot in the UK diminishes her relevance to a British readership even further.

I 100% am disconnected from senior leadership anywhere and think diversity posturing is mere branding. There is literally nothing I, a white woman in low paid, low status work (TA) can do about senior leadership and capitalism. Is this not a more appropriate intra group discussion between elite professionals?

It's shit, AND I have zero influence on it, AND I'm thinking more about the two indigenous girls in my literacy intervention group and whether they'll get post intervention support ongoing. Can that not be enough? What exactly am I supposed to do to support professional WOC?

How is that an interesting read in the U.K.?

Workplaces have to follow actual employment law. They can’t just replace their equality and diversity training with intersectionality because people in the workplace need to be trained to adhere to actual U.K. law in these areas.

‘It's shit, AND I have zero influence on it, AND I'm thinking more about the two indigenous girls in my literacy intervention group and whether they'll get post intervention support ongoing. Can that not be enough? What exactly am I supposed to do to support professional WOC?’

Exactly, and of course women are massively over represented in all the low paid caring jobs that actually deal day to day with the people who experience massive disadvantage. That’s often women’s area of expertise, not elite career building.

@Sociallydistancedcocktails

“For example , you think that race as well as sex has restricted your opportunity”

I’m not sure saying that all.

In my case, I’ve faced racism by white women. But support from white men.

And I have’t been held back. Far from it.
Thank fuck I haven’t relied on the ‘sisterhood’ for help 😊

Perhaps if you can describe the ways in which these women have exhibited racist behaviours towards you, then we could learn something and endeavour to be more supportive. We could analyse the situation to see what work needs to be done. All you seem to be saying is 'white women have been racist towards me, therefore white feminism is BS'. If have more detail we might be able to have a more constructive conversation. I don't doubt for a second that WOC can face racism in the workplace, but I've got no idea how exactly from what you have posted so far, you just seem to want to slag off your colleagues. That might be entirely fair enough, but not sure how we're supposed to contribute.

@LibertyMole

‘It's shit, AND I have zero influence on it, AND I'm thinking more about the two indigenous girls in my literacy intervention group and whether they'll get post intervention support ongoing. Can that not be enough? What exactly am I supposed to do to support professional WOC?’

Exactly, and of course women are massively over represented in all the low paid caring jobs that actually deal day to day with the people who experience massive disadvantage. That’s often women’s area of expertise, not elite career building.

I just feel totally disconnected from the issues of high powered women, whatever their ethnicity or race. I don't have some special hotline to the white female CEO's.

Either you are saying race as well as sex had affected you or it hasn't. You have said both on this thread

And whilst you have given individual anecdote that you feel racism exhibited by women has affected your career , no actual evidence ( although I believe it would be there ) that that is true generally and nothing that would give anyone here any idea how to address the problem

How does if manifest for example ? How did these women harm your progression?
What support were you looking for but couldn't find ? What support did the men give that women were able to give but didn't ?

Grief people here would like to help but it's like dragging blood out of a stone

In my case, I’ve faced racism by white women. But support from white men.

And many women of all races have faced sexism and lack of support from white men. At its heart, feminism is about structural sexism.

I should have said, white men, and often men of other races too.

@NiceGerbil

No but the strong message from this is a deep discomfort of black women pointing out that white women don't do well when it comes to really considering including listening to black women... As groups in feminism, is very obvious.

Upthread someone said feminism is for all women this is divisive.

Same as men say eg DV affects women and men, to focus on women is divisive.

Same same.

I am not sure you realise how much this comes across as the same as:

"You terrible people/women who do not 100% hold the progressive cultural orthodoxy on gender, you are transphobes, you are denying transpeople their voices and denying they exist. You may not talk about the way language is being used in this discussion, and you may not use other models of thinking around these issues as they are automatically transphobic. You also must always listen to the lived experience of people involved and accept it without question - unless they are the bad ones, you need to ignore them."

How does if manifest for example ? How did these women harm your progression?
What support were you looking for but couldn't find ? What support did the men give that women were able to give but didn't ?

Yes, I think it would be helpful if this is to be a constructive thread if some examples of this could be shared. Hypothetical ones fine. Are these women even feminists?

I don't have an issue with the concept that different groups of women experience life issues differently based on other defining characteristics that they have in addition to their sex, so race, ethnicity, class and disability.

I also think there are some basic sex based issues that all women in all cultures have to work through although in very different settings.

I am very unclear why specific culturally based issues in the USA are regarded as universal, or certainly suitable for wholesale importation to the UK.

Or least I understand why the USA believes this but I don't understand why people in the UK do.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I should have said, white men, and often men of other races too.

Misogyny is equal opportunity when it comes to race. White men haven't cornered the market on abuse of girls and women.

@NiceGerbil

Anyone who hasn't read 'why I'm not talking to white people any more' it's had at least 2 recs now so might be worth a gander.

So, this book is from the same perspective as things like Robin DiAngelo and is basically pure Critical Theory and identity politics.

The same movement that gender ideology is beholden to, the stuff that sunk Evergreen in the US. So possibly it's not odd that if that is your view of race, many people on FWR won't really be on the same page, and may even see it as toxic.

And one of the most toxic thing about it is the claim that any other way of thinking about these issues is a sign that you are a racist.

[quote Sociallydistancedcocktails]@ArabellaScott, the article expresses it well. It is about checking privilege and seeing that what benefits me as a woman of a particular race and class may be actually oppressing other women.

And listening to others with different experiences.

This is a broader point, it is not limited to professional advancement. I just highlighted that as an example of intersectionality.

And I think the term ‘white’ here is a shorthand for dominant social class and middle/upper class feminism.

In different cultural contexts it translates to a different group of women, but the grabbing of advancement for a narrow group, patronising attitude, denial of privilege etc is the same[/quote]
I'm sorry but this is same old same old.

Listen and check my privilege.

And then do... what? Or are black womens lives materially improved when I read an article or remind myself how lucky I am to have white privilege?