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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya Forstater's appeal skeleton

999 replies

Mollyollydolly · 25/04/2021 13:21

Saw this on twitter and thought it deserved a thread to itself.

As Jason Braler (employment lawyer) says on twitter "It's more a thesis than a traditional skeleton, but it certainly drives home the points from every conceivable angle.
It may also be the only ever EAT skeleton to have 4 references to Orwell"

hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-eat-claimant-skeleton-argument-plus-low-res-pages-1-50.pdf

OP posts:
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8
Leafstamp · 26/04/2021 19:42

@howmanynames

Does anyone know what time the court case is happening, tomorrow and Weds? Is it all day? When does it start?

I want to make space in my day for following the live tweeting!

It starts at 10.30, see here for some FAQs

mobile.twitter.com/MForstater/status/1386609372353159168

Fieldoftheclothofgold · 26/04/2021 19:47

Gender identity is a sex characteristic, so sex is everything, it includes gender identity and the difference between us is which sex characteristics we give priority to

And like Maya’s argument that this isn’t true, your belief in your argument protects you - to a certain extent - from discriminatory consequence, like being fired. So does hers.

Shizuku · 26/04/2021 19:58

@Datun

The World Health Organisation regional office for Europe describes sex as characteristics that are biologically defined, whereas gender is based on socially constructed features.

Magdalen berns did a wonderful video which showed organisation, after organisation, including trans organisations, describing gender thus.

Shiz is the only person I have ever heard describe it as a 'sex characteristic'.

www.endocrine.org/advocacy/position-statements/transgender-health

"Considerable scientific evidence has emerged demonstrating a durable biological element underlying gender identity.1, 2 Individuals may make choices due to other factors in their lives, but there do not seem to be external forces that genuinely cause individuals to change gender identity."

GNCQ · 26/04/2021 20:04

Hmm so is gender a primary or secondary sex characteristic I wonder?

Anyway can't believe I've given that a second's thought.... Good luck for tomorrow Maya!

Shizuku · 26/04/2021 20:06

@GNCQ

Hmm so is gender a primary or secondary sex characteristic I wonder?

Anyway can't believe I've given that a second's thought.... Good luck for tomorrow Maya!

Don't feel bad - it's actually OK to listen to scientists - you can learn things.
Fieldoftheclothofgold · 26/04/2021 20:11

Considerable scientific evidence has emerged demonstrating a durable biological element underlying gender identity

That doesn’t make it a sex characteristic.

RedDogsBeg · 26/04/2021 20:11

Likewise you could listen to these scientists from the Endocrine Society, Shizuku:

Gender identity is a psychological concept that refers to an individual’s self-perception; while associations between gender identity, neuroanatomic, genetic, and hormone levels exist, a clear causative biological underpinning of gender identity remains to be demonstrated.

Shizuku · 26/04/2021 20:12

@Fieldoftheclothofgold

Considerable scientific evidence has emerged demonstrating a durable biological element underlying gender identity

That doesn’t make it a sex characteristic.

It's a sex characteristic if it is a characteristic that varies between the sexes. Gender identity is such a characteristic.
GreyhoundG1rl · 26/04/2021 20:14

It's a sex characteristic if it is a characteristic that varies between the sexes. Gender identity is such a characteristic.
Will you just STOP IT 🤯. What is wrong with you?

Fieldoftheclothofgold · 26/04/2021 20:14

It's a sex characteristic if it is a characteristic that varies between the sexes. Gender identity is such a characteristic.

I understand what you mean, but no, it isn’t. Being transgender means having an incongruence between your sex and your gender.

I have no issue with your belief. I just don’t share it.

Fieldoftheclothofgold · 26/04/2021 20:15

I should be clear that I don’t believe in gender, and therefore I don’t believe in the incongruence. But that’s the belief system.

Justhadathought · 26/04/2021 20:16

Considerable scientific evidence has emerged demonstrating a durable biological element underlying gender identity

What that should probably say is that there can be an interplay between biological sex and some social constructions of gender.

The notion of an innate gender identity is not something that holds, though, unless you believe in it. Nobody is so binary, as you might put it, in that way. We are all a mixture of characteristics, preferences and skills, regardless of sex. Some of those preferences may be considered 'in alignment' with our biology, others not.

What underlies all of our individual preferences and expressions is our sex

R0wantrees · 26/04/2021 20:17

it's actually OK to listen to scientists - you can learn things.

Medscape (long read article)
Transgender Teens: Is the Tide Starting to Turn?
Becky McCall and Lisa Nainggolan

April 26, 2021

(extract)
Endocrine Society Guidelines Based on One Study

"Safer serves on the Standards of Care revision committee for the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH). WPATH's most recent standards of care , issued in 2012, state: "Adolescents may be eligible to begin feminizing/masculinizing hormone therapy, preferably with parental consent. In many countries, 16-year-olds are legal adults for medical decision-making and do not require parental consent." They add: "Hormone therapy should be provided only to those who are legally able to provide informed consent. This includes people who have been declared by a court to be emancipated minors."

Safe is also a co-author of the Endocrine Society's 2017 guidelines for treating youth confused about their gender. These guidelines were formally presented at the annual meeting of the Endocrine Society in March 2018.

Malone was there.

"At this conference, the Endocrine Society — a highly respected organization — rolled out a set of guidelines for kids that essentially said, 'Your job as endocrinologists is to medically affirm [gender dysphoric] adolescents with puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones,'" he tells Medscape.

Malone says he was astounded when he first heard the guidelines, but immediately assumed, "There must have been a massive change in the landscape, some landmark study that I missed somehow, some stunning piece of evidence that says, 'Psychotherapy is out and affirmation is in.' " But the evidence simply wasn't there, he says.

The recommendations are based on a single uncontrolled study out of the Netherlands (the so-called 'Dutch' study, published in 2014), which Malone says was of low quality. (continues)

No Questions Allowed: Follow the Advice; Debate Is Most Polarized in US
Malone says he was shocked by the Endocrine Society guidelines. "If you start puberty blockers at Tanner stage 2 [early puberty, as recommended], and then put these kids straight onto cross-sex hormones, then it's almost certain they will be infertile, as well as many other irreversible changes."

What he found equally concerning was a complete lack of any facilitated discussion on this controversial topic at the meeting.

"Endocrinologists need to be aware that the 2017 Endocrine Society guidelines on gender dysphoria are one-sided and the evidence referenced within them is low quality. I would urge concerned clinicians to review the primary studies that are being used to justify irreversible interventions," he says.

Malone says the Endocrine Society is failing its members because "although they state that the evidence behind the recommendations is low, they promote the recommendations as though they are 'a standard of care'; they are not." (continues)
www.medscape.com/viewarticle/949842?src=soc_tw_share#vp_6

AnotherLass · 26/04/2021 20:27

Nope Shizuku, what you're saying is pure gobbledegook.

Gender identity refers TO sex, it is a belief about what sex you are, or a feeling of being a particular sex, or a desire to be a sex. And therefore it is dependent on a prior definition of sex and can't be part of that definition.

You can't have a belief that you are a weegil, or a feeling of being one, or a desire to be one, without knowing what a weegil IS.

R0wantrees · 26/04/2021 20:47

Sex characteristics are physical traits which are different for females and males in certain species including human beings. Those suggesting that 'gender identity' is a sex characteristic are presumably signed up to the pink and blue brain belief system.

Gina Rippon (Professor Emeritus of Cognitive Neuro Imaging) tweeted,

22nd April 2021
"READ THIS -PLEASE🤯🤯🤯You don't have a male or female brain – the more brains scientists study, the weaker the evidence for sex differences"
twitter.com/ginarippon1/status/1385292838016061442

chicazurafa · 26/04/2021 20:49

Good luck @MForstater - thank you for your courage and perseverance Daffodil

R0wantrees · 26/04/2021 20:52

Maya Forstater article,
'What is at stake?'

concludes:
"What is at stake is the ability to have open debate, and the integrity and effectiveness of organisations that enable democracy and an open society.
A positive judgment would bring some protection. Robust protection for those who hold and express beliefs that are unpopular are important to democracy.
But people will still have to be brave. Because most cases of discrimination don’t come to court. The chilling effect on people’s careers of expressing unpopular thoughts is most often not felt through the formal mechanisms of disciplinary processes and P45s, but through social shunning, economic and social doors closed, careers damaged in ways too subtle to bring to court.
Ultimately it is not the law which stops people saying things, or enables them to say them. That is just a backstop. It is cultures. It is people.
The NGO the Index on Censorship think that my case is important enough to intervene. So does the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the UK’s official body with the mandate to protect everybody’s rights.
It is a case that demands that you stand on one side or other:
Do you agree with James Tayler, and Stonewall, that expressing my view is incompatible with transgender people’s human rights ? — in which case you should condemn me.
Or do you stand with me, for freedom of speech and belief and for the ability to talk clearly about material reality? — in which case for either up."

mforstater.medium.com/what-is-at-stake-18a8da1af6b7

Flowers
AlwaysTawnyOwl · 26/04/2021 21:42

Shizuku

It's a sex characteristic if it is a characteristic that varies between the sexes. Gender identity is such a characteristic

So you're saying there is such a thing as a 'man personality' and a 'woman personality ' then. So its all about stereotypes just as we thought. And that idea has been thoroughly trashed by Profs Cordelia Fine and Gina Rippon.

AnotherLass · 26/04/2021 23:23

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Thingybob · 27/04/2021 00:15

Thank-you and good luck Maya FlowersFlowers

JackieLavertysWeirdVoice · 27/04/2021 01:00

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JackieLavertysWeirdVoice · 27/04/2021 01:00

Good luck, Maya. May free speech win the day.

boatyardblues · 27/04/2021 05:13

Good luck Maya! 💐🤞

FeckTheMagicDragon · 27/04/2021 05:18

Best of luck Maya ❤️

Helleofabore · 27/04/2021 07:38

Good luck Maya.

It is wonderful to see istandwithmaya trending on twitter and read the messages of support.

Swipe left for the next trending thread