Maya Forstater's appeal skeleton

[Mollyollydolly]

Saw this on twitter and thought it deserved a thread to itself.

As Jason Braler (employment lawyer) says on twitter "It's more a thesis than a traditional skeleton, but it certainly drives home the points from every conceivable angle.
It may also be the only ever EAT skeleton to have 4 references to Orwell"

hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-eat-claimant-skeleton-argument-plus-low-res-pages-1-50.pdf

[quote Shizuku]It opens with "Is a belief that biological sex is real..."

You're off to a pretty bad start there - I have never met a trans person who says that sex isn't real.

Here's Katy Montgomerie - a noted trans activist. The very first line of this essay is "Sex is real".

katymontgomerie.medium.com/why-what-jk-rowling-said-is-transphobic-42081477afa1[/quote]
And I have never met a trans activist who can even begin to explain to me why two real things "sex" and the (less real but still real) concept of "gender" have so different a relavence today? Why is it that gender is everything and sex is nothing when it comes to how the current trans-orthodoxy lobby see how the law should be?

I do not for one second believe that you will even attempt to answer this question.

@PopperUppleton

Oh that deadlift world record holder is a nice looking fella woman, isn't he she? I don't think I've seen a picture before although I am aware of the record attempt What a fab smile

I did consider suffixing the "She's fab." I wrote in that post with "(Maya, I mean)", for the laugh, but thought that would be too rude towards Zuby.

I guess it was left subtly ambiguous...

Adding my best wishes for tomorrow Maya and gratitude for all of the work that has gone into this incredibly important case.

(extract)

1. In that debate, use of the language of sex and gender is contested: ‘even the use of words such as “men” and “women” is difficult’. Some people believe everybody has a gender identity; that this, and not their anatomy, determines their sex; and that the language of sex and gender should therefore always be used to refer to a person’s gender identity. Others, like the Claimant, believe that biological sex and gender identity are different concepts; that the rights of people not to be discriminated against for being transsexual must be respected; but that it is also important to be able to talk about biological sex and the ways in which men and women are differently affected by political, societal and cultural choices and policies; and that it is therefore important to be able to use language conventionally to refer to biological sex. There are of course other views as well, but there is no doubt that the Claimant’s belief is an important and widely-shared one in that debate

.

1. Yet the Tribunal held that, because of the risk of offending trans people, both the use of language to refer to biological sex, and the beliefs which that expresses, are unacceptable in a democratic

society.

1. The label ‘Orwellian’ is sometimes applied too glibly, but here it is warranted. The Tribunal’s approach is reminiscent of the Ministry of Truth’s Newspeak: words themselves are to have their ‘undesirable meanings purged out of them’ along with the associated ideas, so that ‘a heretical thought… should be literally unthinkable at least so far as thought is dependent upon words’ (continues)

63. This core ground of appeal is that the Tribunal simply went completely wrong. It adopted fundamentally the wrong approach; applied completely the wrong test; as a result went hopelessly wrong in its analysis; and ultimately reached demonstrably the wrong conclusion. (continues)

A skeleton argument is an outline of the arguments that one party will make to the court. It provides the framework for oral submissions made at the hearing.

@NecessaryScene1

It opens with "Is a belief that biological sex is real..."

Oh that's just fucking hilarious. Can't even bring themselves to quote the entire first clause, let alone the entire sentence.

Is a belief that biological sex is real, important, immutable and not to be conflated with gender identity so beyond the pale that it is ‘not worthy of respect in a democratic society’?

You'd think that some people would learn by now that the very act of them writing something will automatically mean someone else is going to check it.

"Why is it that gender is everything and sex is nothing when it comes to how the current trans-orthodoxy lobby see how the law should be?"

Gender identity is a sex characteristic, so sex is everything, it includes gender identity and the difference between us is which sex characteristics we give priority to.

"I do not for one second believe that you will even attempt to answer this question."

Now you have 2 reasons to doubt your belief system.

"Gender identity is a sex characteristic"

Say what now? That makes no sense...

@eurochick

"Gender identity is a sex characteristic"

Say what now? That makes no sense...

I'll say...

"There’s also PLENTY who say it’s not real or that there are 70 different sexes, that sex is a spectrum"

Neither the existence of more than 2 sexes, nor the existence of sex as spectrum would logically negate the concept that sex is real.

That's a logic fail from you I'm afraid.

Gender identity is a sex characteristic, so sex is everything, it includes gender identity and the difference between us is which sex characteristics we give priority to.

Could you break this sentence down to meaningful statements please?

@eurochick

"Gender identity is a sex characteristic"

Say what now? That makes no sense...

Oh that's nothing, the same poster said this recently:

'Gender identity is just one of thousands of sex characteristics. When allocating sex, GC people sometimes prioritise gametes, sometimes gonads, sometimes chromosomes, sometimes socialisation - kind of depends which one you ask, and when you ask them, but trans inclusive people tend to prioritise gender identity.'

This poster officially spouts utter rubbish!

Dear God, what utter hog wash

"This poster officially spouts utter rubbish!"

Congratulations on such a carefully reasoned argument.

In the same way that you, Shizuku believe that if a man says they are woman then they are, you also seem to be believe gender is s sex characteristic because you say it is. It isn't. Here is the WHO definition:

The World Health Organisation regional office for Europe describes sex as characteristics that are biologically defined, whereas gender is based on socially constructed features.

Sex characteristics are biologically defined, they are not thoughts and feelings or made up things. You cannot just makeup a sex characteristic.

It's a damn sight more reasoned than 'gender is a sex characteristic'

Keeping on topic .. good luck tomorrow Maya. I will be following the live tweeting with great interest. Then the long wait for the verdict!

Yes, good luck Maya, I will follow here and on Twitter

The World Health Organisation regional office for Europe describes sex as characteristics that are biologically defined, whereas gender is based on socially constructed features.

Magdalen berns did a wonderful video which showed organisation, after organisation, including trans organisations, describing gender thus.

Shiz is the only person I have ever heard describe it as a 'sex characteristic'.

BEN COOPER QC
ANYA PALMER
13 April 2020

'Forstater EAT Skeleton Argument'
(extract)

51.2. As it happens, the Claimant’s belief is in fact on all fours with English law, in that in English law (i) sex is a biological characteristic fixed at birth; and (ii) gender identity is an important aspect of a person’s identity that is worthy of protection, but this is different from sex such that its recognition in law requires careful definition and has limits, in particular in order to accommodate the rights of others (see also generally in support of this proposition: The Forstater Employment Tribunal judgment: a critical appraisal in light of Miller, UK Labour Law Blog, 19 February 2020, K Monaghan).
51.3. The law does not require private individuals always to address or refer to trans people (either generally or those with a Gender Recognition Certificate) in accordance with their gender identity, and not doing so will not, by itself, constitute harassment, discrimination or any other form of unlawful conduct – let alone ‘hate speech’ in the sense used in the ECtHR jurisprudence (see sub-paragraphs 37.8 and 37.13(d) above; and Lilliendahl, §§33-36)." (continues)

Wishing Maya best wishes, and good luck . I shall also be following closely and cheering her on.

Gender identity is a sex characteristic, so sex is everything, it includes gender identity and the difference between us is which sex characteristics we give priority to

There are no absolutely fixed sex characteristics apart from the biological.

What you are really suggesting is that sex is based purely on stereotypical presentations or feelings.

BEN COOPER QC
ANYA PALMER
13 April 2020

'Forstater EAT Skeleton Argument'
(extract p28)

53.1. The underlying position at common law is that sex is biological and is fixed at birth based on chromosomal and physical characteristics; whereas transsexual gender identity is a different category of thing (Corbett v Corbett [1971] P 83, 104D-G, 106B-D & 107A per Ormrod J; Bellinger v Bellinger [2003] 2 AC 467, HL, §§11-12 & 36-37 per Lord Nicholls, §§56-57 & 62 per Lord Hope; Chief Constable of West Yorkshire Police v A (No 2) [2005]
1 AC 51, HL, §3 per Lord Bingham, §19 per Lord Rodger, §30 per Baroness Hale).

My carefully reasoned argument is 'it's all a load of bollocks - and now it's going through various legal tests the whole house of cards is coming crashing down'.

Put that on your needles and knit it.

Does anyone know what time the court case is happening, tomorrow and Weds? Is it all day? When does it start?

I want to make space in my day for following the live tweeting!

@Claire4567

My carefully reasoned argument is 'it's all a load of bollocks - and now it's going through various legal tests the whole house of cards is coming crashing down'.

Put that on your needles and knit it.

Bollocks is a very apt word