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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Maya Forstater's appeal skeleton

999 replies

Mollyollydolly · 25/04/2021 13:21

Saw this on twitter and thought it deserved a thread to itself.

As Jason Braler (employment lawyer) says on twitter "It's more a thesis than a traditional skeleton, but it certainly drives home the points from every conceivable angle.
It may also be the only ever EAT skeleton to have 4 references to Orwell"

hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-eat-claimant-skeleton-argument-plus-low-res-pages-1-50.pdf

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 11:21

I also believe that if someone is going thorough an nhs gender (sex) change process and is being supported to live in that role socially and medically and even legally, then they have the right to go about their business without harassment and without being told they are in the wrong toilets or post operatively the wrong changing room.

This is a valid belief to hold and express.
People should not be harassed going about their business.
If a person is male then NHS provided surgery/medication does not (and should not) come with a prescription to access female single sex spaces. This is ahead of the law.
As an aside, I think great harm was done decades ago by those doctors who described and promoted cosmetic surgeries as, "sex change". Language and sex both matter.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 28/04/2021 11:22

If they are meaning that Maya's beliefs cause harm then the reverse must also be true - the belief that your gender does not match your male sex and that you are entitled to use single sex services for females then you cause harm to the women using those services

You can cause harm Even without being in the building, the risk of meeting a male bodied person is enough to keep women away from single sex swimming sessions.

RedDogsBeg · 28/04/2021 11:25

This is truly opening a can of worms on how the GRA, GRC and Equality Act were devised, written and are being interpreted.

Anovaneway · 28/04/2021 11:25

Saying that "females should have separate sports" as a consequence of my belief isn't humiliating anyone at all.

Completely agree. (Both with the sentiment and you having the right to say it).

But targeting an individual who may be legally participating in a sports and saying ‘you’re a man and shouldn’t be playing in this’, is.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 28/04/2021 11:25

I am the very model of a modern British barrister
Arguing that those tweets really really harassed her
I am digging through the ether for tweets so historical
About whether sex is really categorical

I am very well acquainted with matters adversarial
And my clerk is always somewhat managerial
So about the GRA I am teaming with a lot of news
With many cheerful facts about wearing of women’s shoes

I am the very model of a modern British barrister ...

With sincere apologies to Gilbert and Sullivan

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 28/04/2021 11:25

You can cause harm Even without being in the building, the risk of meeting a male bodied person is enough to keep women away from single sex swimming sessions.

Agreed. And yet, if the claim were that 'nobody thinks that' - and a woman raised her hand to say, "Yes, it deterred me. And you can see that I used to be a regular attender" - this would be interpreted as a need for re-education, not reconsideration of the cause of the harm both to individuals and the need to find a way of living alongside each other in a pluralist and tolerant social system.

drwitch · 28/04/2021 11:26

It also seems to be elevating the bench book above statute and case law (a non lawyers opinion btw)

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 28/04/2021 11:27

To be fair, I genuinely believe that acceptance of the sexist assumptions that underpin genderism (how you dress/think make you a woman) are harmful to women and girls even if no action results from those beliefs

I don’t think anyone should lose their job over it though

NecessaryScene1 · 28/04/2021 11:27

But targeting an individual who may be legally participating in a sports and saying ‘you’re a man and shouldn’t be playing in this’, is.

Well, no, they should be bringing it up with the authorities who are letting them participate in it.

And that's exactly what Maya was doing - talking about policy. Not to individuals.

MedusasBadHairDay · 28/04/2021 11:28

Just once I'd love them to actually read Beauvoir before quoting her. There's even a cheaper abridged version if they are short in time.

yourhairiswinterfire · 28/04/2021 11:29

@RedDogsBeg

This is truly opening a can of worms on how the GRA, GRC and Equality Act were devised, written and are being interpreted.
Yeah, it's a right mess.
ArabellaScott · 28/04/2021 11:29

'speech can't be protected if it creates a hostile, intimidating etc environment for others.'

Who decides the threshold for 'hostile'? Because I'm misgendered frequently and don't find it 'hostile'.

NecessaryScene1 · 28/04/2021 11:30

Yeah, it's a right mess.

But the EHRC's submission did clear a lot of it up, didn't it? The barrister here seems to be ignoring the EHRC's submission.

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 11:30

It also seems to be elevating the bench book above statute and case law (a non lawyers opinion btw)

relevant thread
[[https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4208155-The-Times-Law-section-Thursday-1st-April-Trans-judge-wants-a-more-diverse-judiciary]]

ArabellaScott · 28/04/2021 11:30

The barrister here seems to be ignoring the EHRC's submission.

It was only submitted yseterday, maybe not had time to reassess?

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 11:31

Apologies for broken link.
Relevant thread re judiciary 'Bench Book'
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4208155-The-Times-Law-section-Thursday-1st-April-Trans-judge-wants-a-more-diverse-judiciary

Shizuku · 28/04/2021 11:33

@ArabellaScott

'speech can't be protected if it creates a hostile, intimidating etc environment for others.'

Who decides the threshold for 'hostile'? Because I'm misgendered frequently and don't find it 'hostile'.

You say you aren't bothered by misgendering, but what if you were misgendered all day, every day by everyone including family, friends, colleagues ans strangers so that nobody every addressed you as female in any circumstances. Imagine if that had been your experience from birth. Do you think that would give you a slightly different perspective on how misgendering feels to a trans person?
HPFA · 28/04/2021 11:33

@Anovaneway

Saying that "females should have separate sports" as a consequence of my belief isn't humiliating anyone at all.

Completely agree. (Both with the sentiment and you having the right to say it).

But targeting an individual who may be legally participating in a sports and saying ‘you’re a man and shouldn’t be playing in this’, is.

I think that's allowing an individual to evade moral responsibility.

I wouldn't phrase it exactly like that but someone interviewing a male bodied person competing in a female sport should be able to ask a question such as "regardless of the way you identify your body still gives you an advantage over those who have biologically female bodies. Is that fair?"

Signalbox · 28/04/2021 11:34

The way they are going on makes it sound as if Maya was having this conversation in the workplace rather than on her own Twitter account.

IloveJKRowling · 28/04/2021 11:34

I think they're making quite a good case for repealing the GRA.

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 11:35

But targeting an individual who may be legally participating in a sports and saying ‘you’re a man and shouldn’t be playing in this’, is.

There are some men who believe (erroneously) that they have the 'legal' right to participate in women's sport, use female single sex changing rooms, be referred to as she/her etc

crumpet · 28/04/2021 11:35

@ArabellaScott the skeleton etc are exchanged before the hearing so they will have seen it in advance

SunsetBeetch · 28/04/2021 11:36

@NecessaryScene1

Assertion that law is that sex is biological and fixed at birth is outdated following the GRA. Law and society have moved on.

Does the judge have eye-roll protectors?

They're supposed to bring arguments to the court, not Tweets.

But but...nobody has said that sex isn't real...

I thought that was the official line now?

Defaultname · 28/04/2021 11:37

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

I am the very model of a modern British barrister Arguing that those tweets really really harassed her I am digging through the ether for tweets so historical About whether sex is really categorical

I am very well acquainted with matters adversarial
And my clerk is always somewhat managerial
So about the GRA I am teaming with a lot of news
With many cheerful facts about wearing of women’s shoes

I am the very model of a modern British barrister ...

With sincere apologies to Gilbert and Sullivan

I don't think Sullivan would mind- it was Gilbert who wrote the lyrics!

How about a rewrite of his

That every boy and every gal
That's born into the world alive
Is either a little Liberal
Or else a little Conservative!

to recognise sex assignment at birth?

Or maybe not!

RedDogsBeg · 28/04/2021 11:37

@Signalbox

The way they are going on makes it sound as if Maya was having this conversation in the workplace rather than on her own Twitter account.
Yes, Maya was using her own personal twitter account engaging in a debate around proposed changes to the Law, not conversing in the workplace.