Maya Forstater's appeal skeleton

[Mollyollydolly]

Saw this on twitter and thought it deserved a thread to itself.

As Jason Braler (employment lawyer) says on twitter "It's more a thesis than a traditional skeleton, but it certainly drives home the points from every conceivable angle.
It may also be the only ever EAT skeleton to have 4 references to Orwell"

hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-eat-claimant-skeleton-argument-plus-low-res-pages-1-50.pdf

We're just gobs for hire.
And our thinks are still free.
My arguments are dire
But still attract a fee.

I'm your private mouthpiece
Mouthpiece for hire
And I'll say anything you want…

etc.

I'm sure G&S could have created something about duty compelling etc.

So I wonder if maybe you really do suspect that there is something wrong with the views themselves, as an indicator of bad character.

No I generally don’t. There is a link though. You only have to look at Julia ‘that’s a man’ Long, Kellie Jay Keen ‘M*nroe’ Minshull others who go out of their way to misgender people each and every time.

I also believe that if someone is going thorough an nhs gender (sex) change process and is being supported to live in that role socially and medically and even legally, then they have the right to go about their business without harassment and without being told they are in the wrong toilets or post operatively the wrong changing room.

All I'm hearing so far is hurty feelings, hurty feelings, if you don't state and believe that TW are literally women they will go up in a puff of smoke, waaaah.

You cannot change your biological sex FFS. Sometimes I cannot believe this is actually being debated in a court of all bloody places 🙄

Simone de Beauvoir will be spinning in her grave at this absolutely gobsmacking misunderstanding of what she wrote.

How much work do we think I’m going to get done today?

Sex Matters
@SexMattersOrg
·
4m
There was no positive finding that she limited her reservation of right to circumstances where relevant.

There really is a massive issue when exactly we are allowed to call men, men.

without being told they are in the wrong toilets or post operatively the wrong changing room.

Well they won't need to be told if they use a third space and respect the safeguarding and safety of female children, will they?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

How much work do we think I’m going to get done today?

About as much as I am

• flipping between Twitter and here -

What does this have to do with intersex people?

The way that trans people can be harassed is unique. Example here is a hotel receptionist using "Sir" etc. That creates an offensive etc. environment.

The argument is that trans people are uniquely fragile and must never hear anything that they could object to. Making this part of one's identity is not healthy, and is downright unhealthy for the young people who have adopted a trans identity. It's on the pathway to the falsely inflated suicide statistics.

Quoting’Pip Bunce is a man in heels’ as an example of heinous slander is an odd choice

Was he wearing heeled shoes/boots?

Ralph Lucas is a Conservative back bencher in The House of Lords.
May 5th 2020 he published clarification he had received from the government of the definition used for man and woman. This is based in Equality Act 2010
twitter.com/LordLucasCD/status/1257642470692868097

Lord Lucas wrote,

"Definitions. The government has helpfully pointed out the definitions that they use

"Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'

"Woman": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A female of any age'"

As "Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'" therefore surely a male of any age may thus, and should for clarity, be described as a man and vice versa?

No I generally don’t. There is a link though

Don’t you think these statements contradict each other? You’re saying that you feel there may be a link between being gender critical and being...what? Rude? Criminal? Needing monitoring?

I don’t want to get into bogs and changing rooms, that isn’t what this thread is about. It’s about what you believe, how and when you may express that belief, and whether you can expect to lose your job for it. My reading of your posts is that you feel gender critical feminists need to be extra careful when stating our beliefs, and this case is helping to test what basis that might have in law.

No I generally don’t. There is a link though. You only have to look at Julia ‘that’s a man’ Long, Kellie Jay Keen ‘Mnroe’ Minshull others who go out of their way to misgender people each and every time.*

Dr Julia Long
'The importance of language when talking about transgenderism'

Women's Human Rights Campaign (WHRC)
This talk was given by Julia Long during the launch of Women's Declaration in Germany.
August 2020

So is the argument that misgendering is harassment?

also, I am working, look at me typing

The core component of the belief that C will refer to a person by the pronoun she considers appropriate means that manifestation is baked into the belief.

That is not her ‘belief’. Her beliefs are set out very plainly. You can’t have a ‘belief’ in a thing you intend to do.

Nice sneaking in of Holocaust denial.

The ET found that if a belief necessarily results in humiliation of others, then that it is a component of the belief.

This is a joke right? If I use my belief that sex is real as an excuse to hunt out transpeople and shout "OI, you're really a ......" then that is humiliating people.

Saying that "females should have separate sports" as a consequence of my belief isn't humiliating anyone at all.

how can sex be immutable when this gives legal recognition to a change in sex?

But don't the fact that single sex exemptions exist suggest that 'legal recognition' doesn't mean ''literally changed sex''?

lack of belief in the Holocaust? Not the same as Holocaust denial, surely?

@ArabellaScott

also, I am working, look at me typing

'beliefs' getting smooshed into 'speech' here?

The way that trans people can be harassed is unique. Example here is a hotel receptionist using "Sir" etc. That creates an offensive etc. environment.

Trans people have special feelings. Especially transwomen - it's very hurtful for a transwoman to be called "sir". Unlike a real woman.

I thought the argument earlier was that there couldn't be a distinction between fake and real women?

But don't the fact that single sex exemptions exist suggest that 'legal recognition' doesn't mean ''literally changed sex''?

I would say so, yes.

@Fieldoftheclothofgold

What does this have to do with intersex people?

It doesn't matter how often DSD individuals or organisations ask to left alone and not used as a gotcha - their requests are unheeded.

Claire Graham's initial post about MF's first tribunal:

Here’s the thing…the judge goes out of his way to talk about the need for dignity for trans people. It’s important, we’re told, that we all pretend that the categories of male and female are nebulous and unimportant…That we all pretend that because someone doesn’t like the sexist stereotypes associated with their birth sex that they can actually be the opposite sex, and we must all accept this about them too…The vehicle used to achieve this is, as ever, DSDs.

Where’s the dignity for people with DSDs in all of this, as our complex and often emotionally difficult medical conditions are trotted out and prodded by the ignorant, discussed with morbid fascination by people who have no idea about the reality of them?

mrkhvoice.com/index.php/2019/12/18/what-is-dignity/

I'd also recommend a discussion of another common (and ignorant) theme:

mrkhvoice.com/index.php/2019/08/01/why-do-trans-activists-claim-to-be-intersex/