Pronouns on BBC?

[thenonsensepotter]

Watching Glow Up on iplayer and every time they show a contestants name on the screen their pronoun is included in brackets. I don't watch a lot of current TV, is this a proper "thing" now or just this one program?

The biggest mistake people make with 3rd person pronouns is believing they have ownership of them. 3rd person pronouns are for people to refer to other people as they see them, as a substitute for a noun. An individual cannot claim control over that any more than they can claim control over any other descriptors of a person.

Okay. If you think that then sure. But many others don't. We don't mind. It's about as pointless as not giving your name or age.
Do people routinely announce their age? I don't unless it's relevant.

A name is pretty useful though. Otherwise it would be like on Question Time. "The one in the stripey jumper..."

Gender identity has nothing to do with femininity or masculinity. That's expression. Not how someone identifies.

Not. This. Again.

For those of you lucky enough to have escaped this merry-go-round so far, let me sum it up quickly.

According to ASugarr, biological sex can be explained with the words 'male' and 'female'. Gender expression (masculine and feminine) is reserved for behaviour and stereotypes. So a young female who likes playing with trucks may have the biological sex of female with a masculine gender expression.

However, this is different from one's innate sense as to one's gender identity. Gender identity is girl/boy/man/woman.

Now, I have no idea if I have an innate gender identity separate and apart from biology and 'gender expression' . To try and tease out what 'makes' someone a girl/boy/man/woman, I asked ASugarr what she would say to a child who was confused about their gender identity. What does it mean to be a boy or girl? What questions would she ask to help them figure it out?

ASugarr explained that there was a questionnaire she uses with the children in her care to help them. However, these questions are entirely confidential and it is not possible to share them here or provide an overview.

I later posed the same question to another poster who helpfully explained that we should ask the child if they 'felt' like a girl or boy.

Gender identity is innate and inexplicable. Trying to get any more clarity on this subject seems utterly impossible.

As for pronouns on the BBC, perhaps the nice folx at the Beeb have realised that few people under 35 pay for a licence fee and they think that introducing pronouns and drag shows are a way of drawing in a younger audience???

@EdgeOfACoin

Gender identity has nothing to do with femininity or masculinity. That's expression. Not how someone identifies.

Not. This. Again.

For those of you lucky enough to have escaped this merry-go-round so far, let me sum it up quickly.

According to ASugarr, biological sex can be explained with the words 'male' and 'female'. Gender expression (masculine and feminine) is reserved for behaviour and stereotypes. So a young female who likes playing with trucks may have the biological sex of female with a masculine gender expression.

However, this is different from one's innate sense as to one's gender identity. Gender identity is girl/boy/man/woman.

Now, I have no idea if I have an innate gender identity separate and apart from biology and 'gender expression' . To try and tease out what 'makes' someone a girl/boy/man/woman, I asked ASugarr what she would say to a child who was confused about their gender identity. What does it mean to be a boy or girl? What questions would she ask to help them figure it out?

ASugarr explained that there was a questionnaire she uses with the children in her care to help them. However, these questions are entirely confidential and it is not possible to share them here or provide an overview.

I later posed the same question to another poster who helpfully explained that we should ask the child if they 'felt' like a girl or boy.

Gender identity is innate and inexplicable. Trying to get any more clarity on this subject seems utterly impossible.

As for pronouns on the BBC, perhaps the nice folx at the Beeb have realised that few people under 35 pay for a licence fee and they think that introducing pronouns and drag shows are a way of drawing in a younger audience???

Let's just clarify a few false things here. Firstly, you asked how I would deal with the situation and I said they would be passed on to a gender specialist if we were concerned they may have gender identity issues. They would go through questionares, counseling, all sorts. Not actually something I do. I signpost them on to further support. And the BBC have been including drag race probably because the show makes millions. It has done for a long time. And yeah it probably is just a way to try and get young people to buy a tv license because even my friends in our mid 20's and I don't have one.

As for the 4000% increase in teen girls coming out as transboys since 2012(ish), this is well documented. The number of girls identifying as trans is now significantly greater than young boys, who had previously made up the bulk of young transitioners.

The judges even enquired about it in the Keira Bell case as the numbers were so unexpected. The judges were 'surprised' to learn that the Tavistock had not investigated this at all.

I am surprised that anyone so involved in the transgender community would not be aware of this significant increase in teen girls - particularly those who have been diagnosed with autism - coming out as transboys.

If they don’t make the pronouns clear on screen there is a danger you might think wrong.

It’s creeping normalcy.

@EdgeOfACoin

As for the 4000% increase in teen girls coming out as transboys since 2012(ish), this is well documented. The number of girls identifying as trans is now significantly greater than young boys, who had previously made up the bulk of young transitioners.

The judges even enquired about it in the Keira Bell case as the numbers were so unexpected. The judges were 'surprised' to learn that the Tavistock had not investigated this at all.

I am surprised that anyone so involved in the transgender community would not be aware of this significant increase in teen girls - particularly those who have been diagnosed with autism - coming out as transboys.

Just wanted to add that being transgender isn't just about being a transgender man or woman. It also includes non binary, agender, etc. So all those young people wouldn't all be coming out as transmen.

Let's just clarify a few false things here. Firstly, you asked how I would deal with the situation and I said they would be passed on to a gender specialist if we were concerned they may have gender identity issues. They would go through questionares, counseling, all sorts. Not actually something I do

That is not true, ASugarr. You said, clearly, many times that the questionnaire you used was confidential. You suggested that another healthcare provider on Mumsnet (or someone in a similar role) might be able to share their questions instead.

It looks to me as though you are backtracking on what you said previously (unfortunately, I think the thread on which we had that conversation was deleted, otherwise I would try to dig out your precise words).

But okay, let's say I have a five-year-old child who likes playing with trucks but is biologically female. They don't really know what a boy or girl is (because, quite frankly, I don't know either). They ask me, 'what am I, mummy? How do I know if I am a boy or a girl?'

What do I say to them to help them work it out? What are the identifying features of one's gender identity?

What treatment is provided for people who self declare as non binary/agender?
The 4000% increase is in girls referred for treatment (from as young as 4).

@EdgeOfACoin

Let's just clarify a few false things here. Firstly, you asked how I would deal with the situation and I said they would be passed on to a gender specialist if we were concerned they may have gender identity issues. They would go through questionares, counseling, all sorts. Not actually something I do

That is not true, ASugarr. You said, clearly, many times that the questionnaire you used was confidential. You suggested that another healthcare provider on Mumsnet (or someone in a similar role) might be able to share their questions instead.

It looks to me as though you are backtracking on what you said previously (unfortunately, I think the thread on which we had that conversation was deleted, otherwise I would try to dig out your precise words).

But okay, let's say I have a five-year-old child who likes playing with trucks but is biologically female. They don't really know what a boy or girl is (because, quite frankly, I don't know either). They ask me, 'what am I, mummy? How do I know if I am a boy or a girl?'

What do I say to them to help them work it out? What are the identifying features of one's gender identity?

We use an initial questionare and documents however we don't do anything with that other than pass them on to a gender specialist. We just document them and pass them on with consent of the young person. I don't work with five year olds and even if I did, we'd probably have a counseling session or two to document everything they discuss and pass it on to wherever is appropriate.

@OppsUpsSide

If they don’t make the pronouns clear on screen there is a danger you might think wrong.

It’s creeping normalcy.

It is about 'wrongthink', isn't it?

I knew a mtf transitioner who didn't pass in the slightest. However, based on the name and female clothes, I used 'she' 'her' pronouns out of courtesy. It really wasn't difficult.

If you look at the NHS language guidelines it states that Woman and Man are gender terms. Male and Female are sex terms.
Does this bit mean according to the nhs it’s ok to call a transwoman male? I suppose ally transwomen are women lines has made me expect a transwoman would be pretty pissed at being called male no matter what the nhs says. (Not asking whether anyone believes it, jsut is this counterintuitive statement actually legit)

*all the

Oh my god, am howling at that cat 🤣

The world must be a strange and confusing place if you’re a Brit/English speaker and you have to tell yourself you genuinely can’t fathom what sex someone called Ruth is without additional information. The cognitive dissonance must be unmanageable.

@Enough4me

Imagine the dull future conversations when meeting someone new, "hi I'm X I am a female woman, ciswoman pronouns she/her nice to meet you".

I bet men will just say "Hi I'm X" and bypass all this nonsense.

Don't forget "and I am twenty-two and a half years old" because apparently it's completely routine for adults to announce their age.

We use an initial questionare and documents however we don't do anything with that other than pass them on to a gender specialist

Excuse me for butting in, but I don’t think EdgeOfACoin was talking about children who need specialist attention.

What should we say to any child who wants to whether they are a boy or a girl?

@HipTightOnions

We use an initial questionare and documents however we don't do anything with that other than pass them on to a gender specialist

Excuse me for butting in, but I don’t think EdgeOfACoin was talking about children who need specialist attention.

What should we say to any child who wants to whether they are a boy or a girl?

Obviously if you like dolls you are a girl, if trucks you are a boy. You may need puberty blockers to make sure you go through the right puberty, but I have no idea how we decide who needs those.

Oh, I have just noticed the thread topic, how did we get onto questionnaires?

Obviously the BBC think we need to know pronouns to not misgender people. It was so much easier when pronouns were based on sex and not a personal decision.

Obviously if you like dolls you are a girl, if trucks you are a boy.

Not according to ASugarr though. You’re not a boy because you’ve got a penis and you’re not a boy because you like trucks. You’re a boy because... well, something else which she is not at liberty to tell us.

For those that are new to the thread, here is the cat again.

twitter.com/oldroberts953/status/1384813354754187264?s=21

Phew, it's a good job the Beeb are around to protect us from all that potential wrongthink!

It's a BBC Three programme isn't it? They probably think that's a safe way of trying to bring this in under the radar, in a similar way to how a poster on a thread the other day said something like the NHS know that men would kick off about changing language about them so starting with children and women had been seen as the way to do it as they were less likely to make a fuss.

Maybe I would announce my pronouns, but I don't know what they are now that they apparently have sod all to do with biological sex and nobody can help me figure out what my gender identity is or even what gender is in the first place.

We've been told that the stereotypes are called gender expression, but that still doesn't help me on what gender actually is. When I learnt about gender in the olden days it was specifically about the roles and stereotypes associated with a person's sex but now I'm old and out of touch (because I think 30s is considered old these days) all I know now is that I'm wrong.

And for avoidance of doubt - the eye roll. 🐈🙄

twitter.com/artofhunger75/status/1384699834679144449?s=21

That cat so funny 🤣

It was like stop with your silly nonsense and grow up