Help, DS feels like a girl, confused

[GenderWhere]

Name changed. When asked by his sister (14) during a conversation about gender, DS (12) said he didn't feel like a boy, but did feel like a girl. I am trying to understand what this means. What is feeling like a girl? I don't think I feel like a girl myself. DD says I'm non-binary then. I feel a bit old to be non-binary. I thought I was just a normal feminist.

Additionally, DD is furious with me that I said (before DS said he felt like a girl) that if a child of mine "came out as trans" I would try to encourage them to love themselves as they were as that might be the best way to be happy. This is super-transphobic apparently. I'm so sad and confused. I don't hate anyone. Am I thinking about this all wrong?

Am I thinking about this all wrong?

No, you're thinking about it as a parent, an adult with more knowledge and experience of the world than your children.

I think the best way to find out what this means is not to ask us, but to ask your DS what he thinks it means. What has he been told or read? What does feeling like a girl mean to him? For example, he may just feel that he is more sensitive than the stereotype he holds of what a man should be like. Just explore his feelings and thoughts in a completely loving and non judgemental way. He might be trans, he might be gay, he may be straight - but none of those matter. It’s helping him work out what he thinks and why that is what you need to do. And it may help to tell him you don’t know what feeling like a girl is.

Thank you. Yes to all. I should have added, I did of course try to explore it further with DS but he really did not want to at that point. I will think of nice ways to bring it up again, or wait for him to.

I don't think you are wrong It's heartbreaking to know that one's child is unhappy and perfectly normal to wish they would become content with themselves - preferably without a lifelong medical regime or intervention.

Unfortunately the current cultural climate means that many vocal people will consider this stance "transphobic", but they are also people who haven't raised your child nor even know your child well.

My kids all think I'm transphobic because I'm pro-women's & children's rights and safeguarding. They don't yet have the experience or perspective to see how transgender rights (as argued by some and as they understand it) will undermine the safety of women and children. It doesn't matter that they think this of me, because they also know that I love and support them, we are allowed different opinions and to disagree.

Oh, and you'll never get an answer to "what feeling like a girl or boy is" because IMO there isn't an answer. We are the sum of our biology and social conditioning - why some people think we should further embrace social conditioning by enforcing and following sexist stereotypes (gender roles) is inexplicable to me.

Your DS does not “feel like a girl”, as he is male and therefore can have no knowledge of what “a girl” feels.
What he means is, he feels like what he assumes girls feel. This is likely to be a set of sexist stereotypes, and probably means he is uncomfortable with the toxic masculinity of his male peers.
Perhaps they have been viewing pornography, and he is repulsed by the violence and hate depicted as normal for men. Or perhaps he is gay, and assumes his feelings of desire for men mean he must really be “a girl”.
You really need a discussion whenever he is ready, but in the meantime make sure you create an atmosphere at home where you make it clear you are accepting of homosexuality, and contemptuous of sex role stereotypes.
Adolescence is a confusing and difficult time when children are changing rapidly and becoming their adult selves. You can play a big role in helping DS accept himself as he is, gay or straight, in the body he has.

We are the sum of our biology and social conditioning - why some people think we should further embrace social conditioning by enforcing and following sexist stereotypes (gender roles) is inexplicable to me. That's what I was thinking, but using better words.

Your Dd is 14, so par for the course for her to think she knows more than you.
She doesn't. 😊
Your Ds is only 12 and I would try to keep the focus on him. Try to get him to to talk about stereotypes and what "feeling like a girl" means (and keep him offline).
This ideology is so scary. To think that a child could end up on a lifetime of medication based on such unscientific teaching.
So, to answer your question, no you are not thinking about this all wrong.

Children pick up lots and lots of messages about the world and various trends online, then pass their findings on to their friends, who in turn pass them on to their friends and siblings. Limit time online, and understand that so-called child-friendly content can be shockingly partisan. Keep strict controls on what can be accessed and monitor closely what is being absorbed.

Challenge those life-limiting stereotypes! And don't let your DD influence him too much, she's more immersed in the current teaching than he is, being older, but current teaching is being challenged and removed from schools bit by bit.

Mumsnet really isn't the best place to get advice on this issue. There are a lot of people on here who are transphobic.

I would recommend talking first to your son (as you already have) and second to the GP. There will be counselling and support available for him to help him work things out.

It doesn't mean he is transitioning or even thinking about it - but he's obviously questioning ideas about gender and just needs a safe space to talk this through with a neutral adult who is not his parent.

Please please please make sure that your son is being safe online and not accessing anything related to anime or any forums where this could be discussed.

Both of my boys have been huge fans of anime, from a young age. I thought it was just all Pokémon and comics etc but there is a very dark side to it called hentai. Even the simplest of manga romance often celebrates the (beautiful, young school age) girls innocence, reticence and weakness and the man's insistence at having her. This leads onto Russification and all manner of horror. Within 2-3 years of liking manga my eldest son who is ASD came out as trans. I spent 3-4 years on suicide watch after refusing to adore him to transition but fully accepting and encouraging the long brightly died hair, make up, whatever clothes he wanted etc. He is now 21 and so over being trans it's unreal. He is a gay man.

Just as that all finished my youngest son started on with it all . Both my boys are very gentle, polite, helpful sorts that struggled in the playground etc. My youngest, now 17 , bangs on about how he is a really a girl called Xxx and im dehumanising him by refusing to use it. I simply point out that his real name is a unisex name and his Nick name is a female name, always has been. I've bought the hideous stripe thigh high socks, crop tops, choker necklaces etc and told him I'll dye his hair too. I fully embrace them being gender non conforming but they are Boys.

Anyway. I thought I was doing my best, I really did. Then the police came through my door at 8am one weekend because somebody had shared some illegal images from my address on line. My eldest son admitted it right away. It was Hentai porn. He didn't know that it was illegal. It was just cartoon tentacle porn to him and apparently hilarious. The girl in it was wearing a skirt, shirt and tie and so was a caring school girl. He was arrested, every online connectable device from my home was seized and he was prosecuted. My daughter had to go and live with my sister for two weeks as SS demanded him a rush to her and I had to send him to live with his dad so my daughter could come home. My life has been absolutely destroyed by anime and transgenderism and they are very deeply interlinked. Hopefully suicide can post a link with more information because I can't even bare to Google it after the 6 years of sheer hell that I've been through.

I think your DS is at a difficult age. Around 12 or so, children start to realise their sex more than before. They're getting closer to starting on the ascent towards adulthood. They look and see their ‘path’ and look at their peers. If there are aspects of the stereotypes associated with their gender that they don’t identify with, it’s normal to question themselves.

So make it clear subtly to your DS that being male can mean anything - doing any job, liking or hating sport, being sensitive, having long hair, etc, etc. I’d be wary of saying anything that could be seen as confrontational or intrusive. Subtle, careful statements and gentle questions when appropriate are the way forward.

How did those conversation arise? I’d be wary of your DD consciously or unconsciously spreading dogma. I’d also make it clear that most people don’t have a gender identity because in the 21st century, we don’t subscribe to regressive stereotypes about men/boys and women/girls.

Just want to say thank you for all the replies and I will read carefully a bit later on. x

@nancywhitehead

The nhs and gp are NOT neutral. They affirm whatever the kids say because the kids learn a script of the internet that teaches them what to say to make sure they get a diagnosis. If you think you are trans then you ARE trans.

And I'm transphobic am I? I've been nothing but supportive to both of my children that claimed to be trans. News flash- they were just your run of the mill typical arse hole teenagers. Just like we all were but we're I pierced my own ears and dressed in black and listened to Alice Cooper , they want to inject implants that cause osteoporosis and then hormones that neuter them. (I've been on hormone blockers by the way and they are HORRIBLE ).

The oldest one is no longer claiming to be trans but has I taken him to the gender Gp clinic on line he would have been prescribed puberty blockers and cross sex hormones. His penis would have stopped developing and then shrink. His brain wouldn't be going through the maturation process that it is. And he most certainly wouldn't be a gay man enjoying a healthy sex like like he is now.

Bayswater support group might be helpful, OP.

www.bayswatersupport.org.uk/

Neutral adult indeed.

If there were more of these neutral adults about, we wouldn't have the rise in referrals in teens so desperate to transition that have come about in recent times. The adults in the room are running scared at being called transphobic, crumbling at "transition me or I'll kill myself". Teens don't want to explore feelings, talk in therapy. When they want something they want it now.

And have pp have said, they have a whole online community cheering them on, telling them the magic words to say to get what they want.

I am not transphobic thanks. I have no doubt that there are trans people, and of course they need support and specialist services.

A 12 year old boy who doesn't conform to masculine stereotypes so concludes that he must therefore feel like a girl (feminine stereotypes)? The daughter calling OP super transphobic for not immediately affirming? Nope.

And the OP needs to get him in with one of these "neutral" adults does she?

How about calming down, slowing down, talking about his feelings, looking at gender stereotypes etc. Not being called a transphobe for not saying "how high" when the kids say jump, and not setting her son on a lifetime medical pathway just because he doesn't feel like a manly male.

DS (12) said he didn't feel like a boy, but did feel like a girl

I think for a 12 year old boy, the prospect of facing the toxic masculinity around - r even some of the aspects of "ordinary" masculinity, could be frightening or depressing.

But just because he doesn't feel he conforms to the social construction of "boy" (masculinity), doesn't mean he's "really" a girl. It means he's a boy with a modicum of sensitivity and normal apprehension about growing up.

He's a person, who is biologically a boy/man, and male. With a personality ...

And also to add: how does he know what it feels like to be a girl? He cannot, as he is a boy.

This is where good old 2nd wave feminism, which sees sex as the biological foundation, and gender as a socially & historically constructed system - which serves to maintain certain power hierarchies, and is pretty coercive for most people - women and men - is really helpful.

You can talk him through "gender non-conformity" or just find out why he doesn't "feel like a boy." While emphasising that however he feels is feeling like a boy, as he is a boy.

Three articles written with parents experiencing what you are experiencing OP

When Sons Become Daughters: Parents of Transitioning Boys Speak Out on Their Own Suffering

quillette.com/author/angus-fox/

Some great questions to think about with him-

How do you think a girl feels?
How do you think a boy feels?
Can a girl feel the things a boy feels?
Can a boy feel the things a girl feels?

Some things to think about with your DD-
Do you think someone whose been at your school a long time may know more than someone who's fairly new?
Do you think it's important to consider someone else may know something you don't know?
Do you want to learn all the things other people know?

Then gently point out you love hearing about the things she's learning, and you will always be listening out for new ideas and experiences. However you have many years of experiences, have met many people and seen many changes so you know things, too.

My young friend thought older people were very naive and inexperienced about sexuality and gender identity. I pointed out that actually my age group have been there, done that, tried a few different things and supported friends and acquaintances as they did the same.

Age and experience go hand in hand, generally speaking.

I wouldn’t rush off to see your GP just now. I’d spend time listening to him and creating a safe place for him to talk to you. Too many parents (myself included!) try to express their views, which are coming from a mature informed position, but at the start I think this can backfire as most children just want to be listened to and putting your views out there at the beginning can cause them to shut down. There will be plenty time for discussion as opposed to just listening later if his feelings continue. In the meantime I’d also be keeping a very close eye on his internet usage.

I think the NHS is very hit or miss. Right at the start for us, the first GP ignored me and immediately referred DD to Sandyford against my wishes. I’d made the appointment in the hope of a CAMHS referral for ASD but as soon as gender was mentioned, it turned into a GIDS referral despite my disagreeing. However, more recently, a different GP has been far more understanding of the actual underlying issues and an NHS psychiatrist has said in no uncertain terms we should continue to not affirm her as a boy, so it can vary. My impression is that CAMHS are the most inclined towards affirmation although it does vary by area.

If you do eventually decide seeing a GP is appropriate, I would sound them out first and go well prepared.

It doesn't mean he is transitioning or even thinking about it - but he's obviously questioning ideas about gender and just needs a safe space to talk this through with a neutral adult who is not his parent.

It is utterly inappropriate and contrary to fundamental Safeguarding and Child Protection principles to attempt to undermine parental responsibility and parent/carer - child relationships.

Hopefully some useful responses on here OP. And of course it's not transphobic to question and support your son.
Any adult suggesting that parents should not be involved in their child's life is playing a very dangerous game. Every statistic shows that children do very poorly in terms of life chances when they are alienated from their parents (even children from abusive families). No adult should be trying to drive a wedge between parents and children ever.
As others have said, listening, love, support and watchful waiting along with keeping an eye on any toxic online influences .

There is a series of excellent podcasts by therapists Stella O'Malley and Sasha Ayad

12 Identity vs Role Confusion in Adolescence
"The psychologist Erik Erickson’s theory of psychosocial development makes some essential observations about the period of adolescence and identifies the questions at this phase of life as “Who Am I?” and “What can I Be?”. Sasha and Stella examine this developmental period and ask how the concept of gender identity lays atop the teenage struggle for belonging, individuation, sexual development, and autonomy."

(extract extended notes)
"Up until 12 years old, everything a parent says is considered “law.” After 12, they turn it off and take in outside influences. This makes sense. Children need this process.
Children reject everything you stand for because they don’t want to be a clone of you.
As a mother, Stella says there is nothing that strikes terror in our hearts more when our children are unhappy.
Once our children are teenagers, is there nothing we can do to help them through this process?
Parents need to have a working knowledge of what their teenagers are swimming in. This is a vital time to build a stronger relationship with the child, not disconnect from them.
Do you want to understand where your children are coming from? Make the effort to learn what they’re into.
Teenagers are agonizing over what to call themselves. It’s difficult. There are a lot of categories to choose from." (continues)

gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episode/12-identity-vs-role-confusion-in-adolescence

Full list of Gender: A Wider Lens Podcast episodes: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/gender-a-wider-lens-podcast/id1542655295

I think you have a problem with your DD. Its not her place to convince her brother of anything, or to try to 'educate' him. She shouldn't be trying to do something thats your responsibility. I don't think that what she is doing is appropriate.

I think I'd want to talk to both of them about it as a separate issue, and also explain to them that its normal to feel some confusion and want to experiment when you are a teenager. But its important you do that safely.