Help, DS feels like a girl, confused

[GenderWhere]

Name changed. When asked by his sister (14) during a conversation about gender, DS (12) said he didn't feel like a boy, but did feel like a girl. I am trying to understand what this means. What is feeling like a girl? I don't think I feel like a girl myself. DD says I'm non-binary then. I feel a bit old to be non-binary. I thought I was just a normal feminist.

Additionally, DD is furious with me that I said (before DS said he felt like a girl) that if a child of mine "came out as trans" I would try to encourage them to love themselves as they were as that might be the best way to be happy. This is super-transphobic apparently. I'm so sad and confused. I don't hate anyone. Am I thinking about this all wrong?

Understanding child development and the immutability of sex is not ideological.

The DARVO that it is is pure gaslighting.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Understanding child development and the immutability of sex is not ideological.

The DARVO that it is is pure gaslighting.

Are you suggesting that OP's son is an Offender in this situation?

Or do you not know what DARVO means?

Honestly, I hope it's the latter @Ereshkigalangcleg because I have a hard time thinking that a whole group of self-proclaimed feminists would tolerate this type of talk about a child.

And yes, a belief that humans should be segregated based on the size of the gametes their bodies produce (or would produce if their bodies could produce gametes) is indeed ideological.

Not to mention nonsensical.

And the idea that humans should be segregated based on an inner feeling is totally logical and sensible?

@yeahbutnaw

Typical Mumsnet.

A mother asks for support, and you all rush in to tell her that her son is wrong. This is a distressed child we're talking about. Put your ideology aside for a few minutes.

OP: Listen to your child. They might be confused. Likewise, they might be trans. Try to support them either way. If you prioritise your ideology over your child, you probably won't have a relationship once they're old enough to leave home.

That is not what is being said at all. Don't try to twist people's words and scare GenderWhere with threats of losing her relationship with her child. You don't know her and you don't know her children.

Are you suggesting that OP's son is an Offender in this situation?

Or do you not know what DARVO means?

I do know perfectly well I didn't mention the OP's son once. I was both times referring to your ridiculous suggestion as I made perfectly clear.. It appears that you don't understand what DARVO is or why I used that term about your post.

In other words stop gaslighting that your fringe belief about gender is the non ideological position.

Knowing what biological sex is and valuing female spaces for privacy and dignity is the more common belief. Please read posts more carefully.

OP, you've had some good advice and I'm sorry if the thread has been slightly derailed by things not related to your family. I'd second listening to the Podcast recommend by Rowantrees, I listened to it today and it almost exactly addresses your family situation. For now I'd say your son is simply at an age where he is exploring who he is and is perfectly normal, I would be careful about what both of your children are accessing on the internet though as some of it can be quite damaging to young people.

Good luck, its not an easy stage but you will get through it

I'd explore what he means by 'not feeling like a boy', and if it's because he doesn't confirm to some narrow gender stereotype encourage him to understand that there's more than one way of being a boy.

@GenderWhere

In my close friend group, six children I have known since babies/toddlers questioned their gender as early adolescents. With the exception of two, they all changed their minds around 17/18. At the time, none of them had had any sexual relationships and almost were a bit behind their peers in physical development, despite most being wicked smart. There are a wide range of experiences but I share to let you make your own observations. Sounds like you are a wonderful mom.

1. Young girl said she was NB at 13. Now at 18, she seems to have dropped this. Her mom suspects she's probably a lesbian but with the pandemic, it's been impossible for her very shy daughter to meet or date easily.

1. Young man (with loving parents) said he was NB a few years after his brother came out as trans at 19. Brother also has serious mental health issues and suicide attempts. Brother has since desisted at 25. Because his parents refused puberty blockers and instead put him in family therapy to deal with distress of brother's life, young brother is now 6'2, strong and healthy, happy bi young man who wears awesomely cool clothes from dresses to men's skinny jeans, and he has a healthy dating life and 2 years at art college. I consider him the best success story because his parents, despite acceptance of older child's trans and then later desist, didn't push the younger brother, rather addressed the family trauma head on.

1. Young girl was NB for a few years, wearing binders. This last year of high school, it quietly went away. She now (18) has dated a few boys and seems focused on college.

1. My godson who I love struggles with a lot of mental health issues. Claims to be trans one day and NB the next. Not sure on every detail of his journey as he's very private but I worry about the hormones he's on as he isn't very mature despite being 18.

1. Another girl who is NB and only occurs asks to use they/them...her mom has noticed this is only in her peer group, when she got a job, she preferred sex-based pronouns. She also accepts she's a bio female but queer fluid. I see her as still figuring things out. She's 16.

1. Young woman (21) with lots of trauma at a young age (patents' contentious & ugly divorce, homophobic dad, 2 rapes, mom addicted to pain meds). She is struggling in all aspects of life. She prefers she/they and the label 'gender fluid', but I suspect the trans idea is coming next based on her SM posts. She has been diagnosed with a "personality disorder," but haven't shared what kind.

@yeahbutnaw
There's a 3.5 year waiting period for a first appointment. All patients go through multiple screenings before any medical treatment.

Your "belief" in people being "rushed" through the system is demonstrably false and unquestionably ideologically-driven.

Have you been / are you going through this process with a teenager currently in the UK? Because if you are, as many of us here are, you will know that whilst the NHS waiting list is +2 years long but if you can afford to, there are private practices who will prescribe cross sex hormones after minimal consultation - an hour I believe, online. I was advised by my GP to use one for my child, because of the long NHS waiting list. I don't think some of these practices are ethical in their treatment (or rather lack of) so have not succumbed to the pressure. So yes, treatment to encourage medical transitioning is frighteningly quick and easy to get hold, if you want to give them their profit.

Also, "affirmation" doesn't mean what you think it means in a clinical setting.
I'm curious to know what "affirmation" does mean, in a clinical setting?

I think I would encourage your son to talk to you when he's good and ready and listen and talk with an open mind.
He's at an age when he is beginning to figure himself out. You sound like someone willing to support your kids without judgement but not without critical thinking.
My DD is also 14 and we've been talking around this and lots of other adolescent issues for the last couple of years.
I don't think the gender non-conformity in this generation is frankly any different from any previous ones, but there is more language deployed to describe it. This is both a good thing and equally not so great as it seems to be driving an epidemic of labels.
It's a very very hot topic amongst young adults.
My line with my DD is that self knowledge is a lifetime journey, some things you will know and be sure about yourself from a young age, other things will shift and develop over time. Try not to do anything to yourself now that jeopardises your future self. It's fine to explore now. There are reasons why things like tattoos and intimate piercings for example are age restricted.

@yeahbutnaw

Typical Mumsnet.

A mother asks for support, and you all rush in to tell her that her son is wrong. This is a distressed child we're talking about. Put your ideology aside for a few minutes.

OP: Listen to your child. They might be confused. Likewise, they might be trans. Try to support them either way. If you prioritise your ideology over your child, you probably won't have a relationship once they're old enough to leave home.

Oh give over Where has OP said her son was distressed? There is no more information than he answered a question his sister asked. Doesn't sound like he's mentioned anything like this before and it's just as likely as not it'll be forgotten about and he won't bring it up again.

And since when has science been an ideology?

Instead of asking why her DS 'feels like a girl' OP might find it more enlightening to ask what it is he thinks a boy should feel like that he doesn't feel, iyswim.

That could open up what's worrying him. It might be that his boy mates are telling offensively sexist jokes or talking about porn and making him feel ick when he thinks about his mum and sister. He needs to be assured there aren't two sets of feelings, one for each sex, and perhaps he's just a nice person who needs better friends. Help him see there's all the room in the world for him and his personality and any labels he accepts need to be written by him for himself. So sad to see anyone, young or old, trying to contort themselves to fit into an arbitrary and limiting box. But I'm just a superseded second wave feminist, so what would I know?

Instead of asking why her DS 'feels like a girl' OP might find it more enlightening to ask what it is he thinks a boy should feel like that he doesn't feel, iyswim.

Yes, I agree.

ChiefBabySniffer I am so sorry for your experiences.

ChiefBabySniffer I can't believe what you're wearing family has been through-happy your oldest is doing better.

@jellyfrizz

And yes, a belief that humans should be segregated based on the size of the gametes their bodies produce (or would produce if their bodies could produce gametes) is indeed ideological.

Not to mention nonsensical.

And the idea that humans should be segregated based on an inner feeling is totally logical and sensible?

Thanks for all your stories. Lots of resources and new ways of looking at things. Son is not the slightest bit distressed and certainly doesn’t want any further discussion right now, so that makes things easy for the moment. I’ve made sure he knows I’m here to listen if he wants to talk. And DD and I have buried the hatchet.

he's obviously questioning ideas about gender and just needs a safe space to talk this through with a neutral adult who is not his parent.

Why would you suggest it needs to not be a parent?

The government and every specialist in history acknowledges that parents (or guardian/primary caregivers) are in the vast majority of situations a child's strongest advocates, first teachers and the people with responsibility for care of their child. So, why would anyone try to bypass, diminish or undermine that crucial role?

And yes, a belief that humans should be segregated based on the size of the gametes their bodies produce (or would produce if their bodies could produce gametes) is indeed ideological.

Not to mention nonsensical.

Always interesting when devotees of gender ideology and/or queer theory demonstrate the nonsensical conclusions of sex denial.

There are differences between females and males, just as there are between adults and children of any species.
Recognising the impact of such differences in human beings informs some policies, provision of space/services and also legislation.
It is not nonsensical for female single sex spaces and services to exclude those people who are male sex.