Help, DS feels like a girl, confused

[GenderWhere]

Name changed. When asked by his sister (14) during a conversation about gender, DS (12) said he didn't feel like a boy, but did feel like a girl. I am trying to understand what this means. What is feeling like a girl? I don't think I feel like a girl myself. DD says I'm non-binary then. I feel a bit old to be non-binary. I thought I was just a normal feminist.

Additionally, DD is furious with me that I said (before DS said he felt like a girl) that if a child of mine "came out as trans" I would try to encourage them to love themselves as they were as that might be the best way to be happy. This is super-transphobic apparently. I'm so sad and confused. I don't hate anyone. Am I thinking about this all wrong?

DD says I'm non-binary then. I feel a bit old to be non-binary. I thought I was just a normal feminist.

M.K. Fain's article is really worth reading for those who have daughters claiming/promoting a non binary identity:

'Non-Binary Is the New “Not Like Other Girls,” and it’s Deeply Rooted in Misogyny'
(extract)
Now, one year later, all three of them identify as “non-binary” — no longer a woman.

According to the Human Rights Campaign, non-binary means:

An adjective describing a person who does not identify exclusively as a man or a woman. Non-binary people may identify as being both a man and a woman, somewhere in between, or as falling completely outside these categories.

So how did three feminist women who were bravely defying gender norms and tackling the male violence in their lives suddenly decide they are non-women?

Non-binary identities are on the rise. In the UK, the number of non-binary students appears to have doubled between 2017 and 2018. With two-thirds of young people who identify as trans being female, it’s likely that most of the growth in non-binary identities has come from young women. While there is a dearth of research in this area, my experience is not unique. To feminists, this should not come as a surprise.

A 2018 article in Teen Vogue outlined the experience of one non-binary woman:

I reject the whole concept of gender. Growing up, I never felt people were wrong when they called me a woman, but it felt like a label imposed on me rather than one that fit. Then, in college, I learned about non-binary identity, and that did fit. Sure, I have likes and dislikes that some might label “feminine” or “masculine,” but I don’t feel any need to label them that way. The gender binary has made me feel pigeonholed, and I don’t want to identify with it.

Feminists have long rejected the concept of gender, defining it as oppressive sex-role stereotyping and maintaining the goal of abolishing the gender caste system. Rather than rejecting gender, the writer in Teen Vogue seems to have bought into it entirely, believing that she must not be a woman simply because she does not fully meet the expectations of womanhood. Does she think her experience of being falsely categorized by gender is unique? Is she “not like other girls”? (continues)

4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny/

4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny/

We went through this and it was a complete nightmare as my son was unable to express why he thought he wasn’t a boy. All the counsellors at school & CAMHS just told him he was a girl trapped in the wrong body. Dd 18 months younger than him was v influential & still believes he’s a girl trapped in a man’s body,

No good news I’m afraid. I’m in support groups but to be honest I’m just waiting for him to finish university & then cutting all ties with him. I can’t cope with this & don’t need to.

I would recommend talking first to your son (as you already have) and second to the GP. There will be counselling and support available for him to help him work things out.

A 12 year old boy who says in conversation with his older sister that he's not sure he feels like a boy does not need to be taken to the GP.

There is no medical or psychological 'problem' in such a 12 year old child indicated by his comments which requires fixing or pathologising by GPs or counsellors.

This is harmful advice which ignores all child development knowledge and so best ignored.

Thanks so much for all the input. There's a ton of useful thoughts there.

My son went through this. He told me at the age of 15, but said he had been having the feelings since about 10/11 years old. We went to GIDS and were very lucky to have a thoughtful therapist who didn’t rush any decisions.

Earlier this year he told me that he was now happy to be a boy (man I suppose, he’s 19!), I felt such a weight off my shoulders that he is now happy to be a gay male with long hair! I wish I could tell you I had a magic solution, but I think it was just time and ‘life’ happening. He took a year out of university because of Covid and went to work full time. He went out into the real world and realised he could fit into it just the way he is.

Once upon a time, I was a teenager in a LGBT/gay-straight alliance, and the conversation turned to how understanding we would be if our future children turned out to be under the umbrella. One club member, who wanted to impress the trans member, by boasting of how accepting he would be if a child said they were transgender.

Our trans member hit the roof with him. They outlined the financial and physical impact of the procedures they were going to get to treat their dysphoria and told him that they wished that they had been able to treat their body dysphoria far less invasively. Then they said that if they ever had a child who experienced that distress themselves, the first thing they would do would be to work to see if it could be treated through therapy instead.

That's what I thought of when I read the OP.

Good luck, OP - let's hope it's your DS just thinking about the difficult bits of growing up. Maybe he can be inspired to challenge & change the aspects of masculinity which he's anxious about or feels disconnected from.

Michael Conroy is ace on this stuff: his "Manbox" work is worth seeking out.

Why would a concerned parent choose the feminist board to ask this

Because her DS is confused about gender roles & stereotypes?

She may have asked other people, both online & IRL, and want a range of ideas and opinions. It's good to hear lots of different views when you're facing something difficult.

That's pretty rude, Tiggeri. Why wouldn't she?

Earlier this year he told me that he was now happy to be a boy (man I suppose, he’s 19!), I felt such a weight off my shoulders that he is now happy to be a gay male with long hair!

I'm so pleased for your son and you that he found contentment.

Typical Mumsnet.

A mother asks for support, and you all rush in to tell her that her son is wrong. This is a distressed child we're talking about. Put your ideology aside for a few minutes.

OP: Listen to your child. They might be confused. Likewise, they might be trans. Try to support them either way. If you prioritise your ideology over your child, you probably won't have a relationship once they're old enough to leave home.

@BigGreenOlives

We went through this and it was a complete nightmare as my son was unable to express why he thought he wasn’t a boy. All the counsellors at school & CAMHS just told him he was a girl trapped in the wrong body. Dd 18 months younger than him was v influential & still believes he’s a girl trapped in a man’s body,

No good news I’m afraid. I’m in support groups but to be honest I’m just waiting for him to finish university & then cutting all ties with him. I can’t cope with this & don’t need to.

OP: This is the outcome if you choose your ideology instead of your child.

I believe transgender trend offers a resource list for parents.

It’s entirely likely (statistically) that your son isn’t trans, but there’s lots of sane and helpful information to help you navigate this.

@yeahbutnaw

Typical Mumsnet.

A mother asks for support, and you all rush in to tell her that her son is wrong. This is a distressed child we're talking about. Put your ideology aside for a few minutes.

OP: Listen to your child. They might be confused. Likewise, they might be trans. Try to support them either way. If you prioritise your ideology over your child, you probably won't have a relationship once they're old enough to leave home.

Has the OP indicated anywhere that her DS is distressed? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that he mentioned it passing, or while there was an opportunity to, rather than spending months agonising over his decision to 'come out'.

It is entirely possible for young adolescents to have a non loaded conversation about how they're now viewing the world in relation to their sex and 'gender identity'

@yeahbutnaw I just wanted someone to talk to him to try & find out why he suddenly wanted to change his body dramatically. I don’t think 2 x 20 minutes is long enough to decide someone should be prescribed opposite sex hormones. That was what scared me - that the only solution was hormones & surgery. I would be opposed to a child wanting breast enlargement or reduction at 16 too.

If you prioritise your ideology over your child, you probably won't have a relationship once they're old enough to leave home.

What an appalling thing to say to a mother whose 12 year old son has expressed some confusion in a conversation with his sister.
Understanding child development and the immutability of sex is not ideological.

If you prioritise your ideology over your child, you probably won't have a relationship once they're old enough to leave home.

And the "affirmation only" and the "medication after 1 hour of counselling" or the "get your medication on the internet" are NOT ideological???

@R0wantrees

If you prioritise your ideology over your child, you probably won't have a relationship once they're old enough to leave home.

What an appalling thing to say to a mother whose 12 year old son has expressed some confusion in a conversation with his sister.
Understanding child development and the immutability of sex is not ideological.

Shouldn't you be policing people's statements on the LGB Alliance on the other thread?

And yes, a belief that humans should be segregated based on the size of the gametes their bodies produce (or would produce if their bodies could produce gametes) is indeed ideological.

Not to mention nonsensical.

@MeltsAway

If you prioritise your ideology over your child, you probably won't have a relationship once they're old enough to leave home.

And the "affirmation only" and the "medication after 1 hour of counselling" or the "get your medication on the internet" are NOT ideological???

There's a 3.5 year waiting period for a first appointment. All patients go through multiple screenings before any medical treatment.

Your "belief" in people being "rushed" through the system is demonstrably false and unquestionably ideologically-driven.

Also, "affirmation" doesn't mean what you think it means in a clinical setting.

I honestly think most early teens question their own gender and how they feel. I definitely thought I was a boy or at least wished I was at about that age. Thankfully it was the early 90s and everyone just shrugged and said 'yeah being a boy would be good in some ways but being a girl is great too' and that was that.

Like PPs have mentioned I think its connected to an apprehension about growing up, and what means for your body and social interactions. It was a 'grass is greener' life is so UNFAIR, why MEEEEE type approach that I took to everything as a 12 - 15 year old. Doesn't pretty much everyone?

Anyway good luck OP, hopefully with some open dialogue and thought provoking questions you can help him sort through some of his thoughts on the matter.

@yeahbutnaw Both the practitioner at CAMHS & the school counsellor suggested we go privately to avoid waiting for hormones, it was the school counsellor who had only seen him for 2 x 20 mins. The nurse at CAMHS saw him for 40 mins thought he should be assessed for autism & anorexia & then on our second visit suggested going privately to a clinic. Oh yes, the one that has since been shut down.

And yes, a belief that humans should be segregated based on the size of the gametes their bodies produce (or would produce if their bodies could produce gametes) is indeed ideological.

Don't be ridiculous. People not being convinced by a trendy, whimsical belief system revolving around the unproven idea of humans having "gendered" souls and the idea that the entirely sex based stereotypes they adhere to is more meaningful than which of the two sexes they actually are, is not an ideology.