Sex surrogates — not sure how I feel about this

[FrankensteinIsTheMonster]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-56737828

Does anyone have links to feminist discussion on sex surrogates, or have thoughts on the ramifications of this kind of, well, sex work I suppose, though a very specific subgenre of it? I'm trying to begin thinking through this in an organised way, but coming across all kinds of stumbling blocks.

There is nothing progressive about women being expected to give up their bodies to men. They may cash in on it, but the reason they can is the expectation that they are vessels for sale. The reality is it is mostly disadvantaged women who will do this. They may be hardened to the world which exploits them, but my sympathy for the hypothetical disabled person who requires sex is not greater than my empathy for the women for sale, or my concern that the fact they are considered collateral speaks volumes about how we view women as a society.

I am actually going to look more into the Nordic model [now], though this link says Israel has signed up to it, so how does that fit together?

nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

That's very interesting.
I would 100% believe that this is behind the newspeak of calling these prostitutes "sex surrogates". I mean, call it what it is. A person paid to have a stranger they have no personal attraction for, penetrate them with their penis is a prostitute right?

The state enable prostitution for this particular group of men. Which other groups of men are going to get in on this "scheme"? Disabled? Prisoners? Otherwise disenfranchised? All of them?

I of course have every sympathy for soldiers injured in warfare.
How about the state do something about stopping warfare rather than continue exploiting people, men and women, in every possible way.

23:32 ProfessionalIntegrity
^ Sorry forgot the quote/reply above

How are these 'sex surrogates' recruited?

As an overweight, not very attractive, and very broke, middle aged women I strugge to get handsome men interested in me.

I demand the state provide me with attractive men for sexual purposes, its my human rights surely?

@Mugginyouleftrightandcentre

How are these 'sex surrogates' recruited?

I wondered that. Is there a market for older surrogates? What are they paid? Asking for a friend .

Genuine question; what is sexual rehabilitation?

My mind went straight to ‘solider has penis shot off, needs sexual rehabilitation’ but then.. how do they have sex.

What actually is sexual rehabilitation?!

@RabbitOfCaerbannog

In a freely funded and open society, that would be really helpful. As I have said before, there are male surrogates too.

In a patriarchy I suspect it's much more rare. Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary?

@RabbitOfCaerbannog - its not my job to prove it to you but sexual surrogacy is not a new thing or confined to women servicing men - information is out there, go look it up.

you seem to have an issue with this being paid for - but plenty of professions help people with personal issues things, and get paid for it. Again if people are happy to do it of their own free will, why not?

I would argue your point about sexual intercourse being a human right - there is a long and nasty history of disabled people being treated as second class citizens and being undesirable or not being worthy of having children, and the comments here about sex not being a right have a really nasty connotation of that.

For anyone really interested in educating themselves about this

www.healthline.com/health/healthy-sex/sex-surrogate#what-it-is
And from

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20070052/

This quote - Masters and Johnson, in their book "Human Sexual Inadequacy", wrote that "one cannot learn about sexuality in any practical way without actually experiencing intimate behavior with a partner". This ethical approach directed them to develop the therapeutic method of working with surrogate partners, as they thought all people are entitled to receive therapy, if they so wish, including people without partners.

If you read up you will also see that surrogates only have actual sex with the client a small proportion of the time - most of the work is about other aspects of intimacy.

Very sad to see so many people writing this off.

@LifesLittleDeciders

Genuine question; what is sexual rehabilitation?

My mind went straight to ‘solider has penis shot off, needs sexual rehabilitation’ but then.. how do they have sex.

What actually is sexual rehabilitation?!

Sex to make someone feel better about themself

'
I would argue your point about sexual intercourse being a human right - there is a long and nasty history of disabled people being treated as second class citizens and being undesirable or not being worthy of having children, and the comments here about sex not being a right have a really nasty connotation of that.'

The idea that people with disabilities can only get a fuck if they pay is extremely disablist.

It also assumes that they can't find a partner because of the disability. The idea that they may be horrible people etc is not considered. This is patronising.

I would argue your point about sexual intercourse being a human right - there is a long and nasty history of disabled people being treated as second class citizens and being undesirable or not being worthy of having children, and the comments here about sex not being a right have a really nasty connotation of that.

There's a longer and nastier history of men's 'right' to sex meaning women had no right to refuse. Rape in marriage being just one vile example.

I have worked with people with disabilities, including supporting loving, consensual relationships. With unpaid partners. As long as people have capacity, have at it. That doesn't mean people have the right to sex regardless of anyone freely consenting to have sex with them.

I would argue your point about sexual intercourse being a human right - there is a long and nasty history of disabled people being treated as second class citizens and being undesirable or not being worthy of having children, and the comments here about sex not being a right have a really nasty connotation of that.

I'd be in that category of people and strongly object to being used as an argument for people having a right to be provided with a sex partner.

Nobody is unequivocally responsible for fulfilling the needs of another body (unless they've given birth to them). However sad or desperate your situation you do not have a human right to someone else's body (women's bodies) for rehabilitation or satisfaction. It is not progressive to view women's bodies as a commodity. It is not women's responsibility to right all the wrongs that happen to others.

Amnesty Ireland a few years back said that sex was a human right iirc

Terrifying.

Ugh

I mean people have the right to a family life but no one is going to force Doris from next door to be your gran. Only in this case does it seem that a right becomes leverage to coerce another human.

It's the term 'surrogate' that bothers me the most. A surrogate stands in for another person or role. So, in these cases that would be a stand-in for the actual partner of the client (MAN) involved. So why can't the state instead work with the couple and help them with any sexual dysfunction as a couple? Lots of couples have sex therapy counselling if there are reasons they can't make sex work (and presumably their therapists don't actually hop into bed with them). So why would this - people with injuries - be different? And if the client doesn't have a partner - well, surely that's sort of outside the remit of the State? Sex is not a right.

To me, there's a very sinister undercurrent of 'these heroes have been wounded in the service of their country and therefore DESERVE state-funded sex via prostitution'.

I agree totally glom and can you imagine how the partners of these men must feel to know they are ‘practising’ having sex with a surrogate
I wonder if their partners are given the option of saying no to this or if it’s just become engrained as something that happens after a soldier gets injured. And given how many sexual problems are psychological rather than physical are soldiers with any type of trauma also allowed surrogates to help them recover???

@transsloth

What's there to think about? To my mind sex is not a job, so this is just as ridiculous as any other kind of "sex work".

Wow.

Daisy could you expand on your Wow?

To me, it is the involvement of a another party (usually a woman) that is the issue, there is a massive difference between the right to have the opportunity for a sexual partner and a right just to have sex with someone when that someone is a prostitute. Let's not dress up the language, it is the fluffiness around language that has got us to the point where paying for a man to have sex is seen as being progressive and a vital part of a treatment plan.

I had a former male friend who was in a wheelchair. He's a former friend because I found out he used to upskirt women on nights out, visit brothels and take trips to Thailand where he'd be having sex with probably underage girls sold into sex slavery. But ah, poor little disabled guy, he deserves to get his, right? His biggest problem not getting sex probably wasn't due to being in a wheelchair, but being a fucking creep, and using being in a wheelchair to excuse being a fucking creep, just like men make all sorts of other excuses for misogynistic, entitled behaviours.