Sex surrogates — not sure how I feel about this

[FrankensteinIsTheMonster]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-56737828

Does anyone have links to feminist discussion on sex surrogates, or have thoughts on the ramifications of this kind of, well, sex work I suppose, though a very specific subgenre of it? I'm trying to begin thinking through this in an organised way, but coming across all kinds of stumbling blocks.

Delphinium

Children eh! I had some funny ideas when I was young.

I'd go with

'poor disabled man, no one will have sex with him'

That's disablist. Assuming that people with disabilities can't find partners.
Maybe the man in question is horrible and that's why no one will have sex with him.
Assuming all disabled people are harmless is patronising.

Some people, plenty of people, without disabilities can't find a partner. Do they get a pass to pay for sex as well?

And where are the disabled women in her thoughts? Why are they never in these stories? How would she feel about a young woman with learning disabilities being supported to get men to come and have sex with her? If that doesn't feel exactly the same then why not?

A few things there to gently push her way if it comes up again!

Either a deeply unprofessional breaking of boundaries between therapist and patient, or an attempt to rationalise/justify prostitution. Both appalling, and the latter seems more likely.

And why is the word surrogate used?

I've never understood that.

A stand in, for who?

Thanks NiceGerbil

Yes, it's all just theory with a slant for teen DD now. I like those points...

@NiceGerbil

And why is the word surrogate used?

I've never understood that.

A stand in, for who?

You're right, that's kind of strange come to think of it. I guess trying to imply that they're a stand-in for a sex partner rather than an actual sex partner, even though if they're having sex then they are an actual sex partner… a way of distancing it from prostitution where you're paying for the actual sex, whereas this is supposedly paying for learning how to do the sex rather than for the sex itself, which is just a necessary by-product of the process of learning

[quote Delphinium20]@FrankensteinIsTheMonster Not sure, but she was arguing it from the perspective of "poor disabled man, no one will have sex with him." and I said that's a slippery slope when you think, as PP noted, "only women can be a vessel for that need."

[/quote]
Yep, 100% this. Men do not provide these services for women.

@NiceGerbil

And why is the word surrogate used?

I've never understood that.

A stand in, for who?

The way I read it is they are a surrogate for an actual proper human. But I'm cynical.

You could make an argument for male sex surrogates for straight women leaving violent relationships. If anyone needs help to feel safer, happier, understand boundaries, surely it's women with PTSD from male violence. So I assume half her clients are just that... no? ASTOUNDED I tell you

Indeed @MrsTerryPratchett it's extraordinary how that doesn't seem to be the case.

I think it's because, as a woman, the thought of paying someone to shove a part of them in me, no matter how gently and thoughtfully, is abhorrent (outside of medical need - and even then, I was very choosy about vaginal exams during pregnancy for instance).

Mind you, as a woman, I don't think I could pay someone to let me shove a part of me inside them either... but that could be because I already have the first perspective.

Sex isn’t a job or a right, this sets a precedent that men need sex with women and it’s their human right to obtain it, which is absolutely not true and dangerous.

@Delphinium20

My teen DD tried to argue that sex work for disabled men was altruistic...

Next up, we can expect sex work for those poor elderly men in nursing care.

`That already happens.

Whats next BBC?

Promoting prostitution for rapists and serial killers?

Helen Mirren is a supporter of the TLC Trust which pushes this agenda. It's still prostitution.

I wrote a paper on this 20 years ago for a masters course I was doing on human sexuality where I was looking at attitudes to sexuality for disabled people. Lots of people see sex as a normal part of their life - why should disability stop this? Although it is common to see disabled people as asexual or desexed in some way and people who have become disabled can struggle to adapt to their new condition and to see themselves as sexual. People doing this work also help disabled people and their partners have sex by physically supporting one partner or helping them move around.

This article has a very narrow focus implying that all surrogates are female - this is not the case. Also as was made clear, this is a type of therapy, which is finite and done with the aim of promoting independence.

Mostly women though isn't it, for Israeli soldiers - can't imagine there are many men being provided by the government, can you? Of course disabled people have sexual
urges and needs - it's still the case, whoever is asking that they need a female body to fulfill them. A govt programme paying women to fulfill sexual needs is state subsidised prostitution.

There's a massive difference between an accommodation so that someone can have sex with a consenting unpaid partner and a sex worker being supplied so that someone can have sex with them.

Do people really not see the difference? One is basically OT and the other is prostitution. A little different.

People are coming for therapy. They're not coming for pleasure. There is nothing similar to prostitution," she adds firmly.

It's exactly prostitution IMO, doesn't matter that you dress it up as 'therapy'.

I don't think anyone has a right to sex. It's a dangerous attitude. By all means, state paid sex therapy for those injured in the line of duty if they want but not to use someone else's body.

I cannot envisage a world where a woman's sexual pleasure would be seen as a right and it would be addressed in the same way. There's no mention of women in the article receiving therapy only being the surrogates. Weirdly doesn't Israel have women soldiers quite routinely?

These articles (that I've seen) do have females providing this service for males.

Israeli army has women. They have national service for both sexes. That's been the case for a fair old while.

Do they army/ govt or whoever provide male therapists for gay men?
And yes what about the women who have been disabled etc?

And also if it's about feeling relaxed about touch etc then in theory why does the sex of the therapist matter? Are any of the therapists older/ disabled etc? Can the client reject a certain therapist based on looks/age etc?

Depending on the answers to questions like that points it more towards therapy / paying for sex imo.

Mostly women though isn't it, for Israeli soldiers

From what I understand, national service is required for both male and female Israelis - certainly the Israeli women I worked with knew how to handle a rifle!

I would presume the split past that is vast majority men though, admittedly.

Aw fuck! Sorry. I only meant to copy a bit!

Ooppppsss

This was the part.

That's disablist. Assuming that people with disabilities can't find partners.
Maybe the man in question is horrible and that's why no one will have sex with him.
Assuming all disabled people are harmless is patronising.

Some people, plenty of people, without disabilities can't find a partner. Do they get a pass to pay for sex as well?

And where are the disabled women in her thoughts? Why are they never in these stories? How would she feel about a young woman with learning disabilities being supported to get men to come and have sex with her? If that doesn't feel exactly the same then why not?'

I know that Israeli National service is for both sexes. But this article is about the state paying women to have sex with men.

I'd like to see articles where women are also using this service because, like every other service where sex is about one person having sex with another in a transactional arrangement which is paid for, it's 99% men doing the paying and 99% women being paid.

@NiceGerbil

In general women aren't sent to the front lines so it's not surprising it's mostly men being injured.

I agree this is simply dressed up prostitution though.

As to PP asking about violence "within" the state producing so many injured soldiers, it's not happening "within" the state. It's the state's Jew-hating blood-thirsty neighbours that are responsible for so many injured young men - you just don't ever hear that side of the story on the news (there's a lot of parallels between TRA and Palestinian tactics btw - in fact most of the TRA tactics are straight out of the Palestinian playbook).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000Ramallahlynching