Sex surrogates — not sure how I feel about this

[FrankensteinIsTheMonster]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-56737828

Does anyone have links to feminist discussion on sex surrogates, or have thoughts on the ramifications of this kind of, well, sex work I suppose, though a very specific subgenre of it? I'm trying to begin thinking through this in an organised way, but coming across all kinds of stumbling blocks.

I don't disagree with you clymene.

There must be women who have been injured and I doubt men would be brought in to have sex with them. Is my point.

I've reported that cut n paste error to try and get it deleted btw

Really sorry about that. It's an interesting conversation.

'Lots of people see sex as a normal part of their life - why should disability stop this? Although it is common to see disabled people as asexual or desexed in some way and people who have become disabled can struggle to adapt to their new condition and to see themselves as sexual.'

You see I just don't get this.
I think the thought process is.

People (but actually thinking about men) have a need for or a right to sex.

People with disabilities will struggle to get sexual partners.

Therefore it's the kind and decent thing to do to facilitate the provision of sexual partners or to not see it in the same way as other men paying for sex.

it's about learning to be a person

Where to even begin with this article? I’m pretty sure these recipients are already people, and know how to be one already. There’s so much contradiction - it’s not sex, it’s therapy, but it can’t be married men or women.

Ugh. As someone who could probably do with with actual sex therapy to deal with past abuse, I find the idea of this so repellent. I really hope no one with a history of abuse feels pressured into this.

The problems I have with this are pretty much as before.

Sex is not a need or a right.
Plenty of people without disabilities struggle to get partners and loads don't pay for sex.
The idea that people with disabilities are essentially never ever going to get a partner is horrible.
Disabled people aren't all nice what a bizarre thing to assume. Maybe they can't get a partner because they're horrible.

In short. Nope.

@Kotatsu

Mostly women though isn't it, for Israeli soldiers

From what I understand, national service is required for both male and female Israelis - certainly the Israeli women I worked with knew how to handle a rifle!

I would presume the split past that is vast majority men though, admittedly.

My point was not that women don't serve in the Israeli army. more that I think it unlikely that the government is paying for men to service them.

I think that they wouldn't tbh. Maybe they would allow a female one for women even if straight?

And would women want it anyway?

This goes one way doesn't it.

I bet any male therapists work pretty much exclusively with gay men.

Baby got blue eyes

As you've studied this maybe you can answer my question.

Does the client have to option to choose a different therapist based on their sexual preferences?

If it's about therapy then surely therapists can be male, female, getting on a bit (like me :D) etc. Or indeed have a disability.

The point with a therapist is that you feel comfy taking to them. You trust them. And that could be any sort of person.

Do heterosexual men have male therapists? In general? I know that lots of men feel more comfy talking about this sort of thing with other men so it would make sense they had a male therapist. Plenty prefer talking to women as well obviously.

Are young men often treated by female therapists who are in their 50s?

I'd imagine so as a young man who has been disabled suddenly for example has really a lot to come to terms with, and so a very experienced therapist would be the natural choice.

Are there stats? Do you remember any good sources from your studies?

*Whats next BBC?

Promoting prostitution for rapists and serial killers?*

I think the Guardian has that covered Green since 2019.

“Access to sex workers will not of itself resolve the issue of the respondent’s ability to manage his sexual urges ... [but] the option for the respondent to engage in regular, albeit infrequent, sexual contact should serve as an additional protective factor....He is now able to identify some of the triggers for his offending, most specifically boredom, loneliness and talking to women that he does not know,” Derrick said. “He has increased his understanding of the risk situations that he will need to avoid.

He has gained a rudimentary understanding of the concept of consent.”

Ah well, that's alright then.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jul/09/sex-offender-released-from-wa-prison-and-given-conditional-access-to-prostitutes

"Next up, we can expect sex work for those poor elderly men in nursing care. "
`That already happens.'

Maggie ... I had no idea! I believe you, but, curious, where is this happening?

NiceGerbil I think from what I can make out, the therapist is a different person to the "surrogate"…?

The thing is that a lot of therapy depends on practising/carrying out what you've been working on in sessions, in between sessions. So for example, if you have CBT to help you with assertiveness, each week you'll have to practise assertiveness in real-world situations between sessions. If the area you need to work on is sex-related, then I guess it's difficult to work out how the actual work of change can be done unless the client has some way of carrying out what they've been learning in the therapy sessions, and that's where this "surrogate" comes in.

The vessel

Yeah…

Holy fuck.

The old idea that men need sex and so must have access to men and women to fuck or they will rape.

These ideas are so deeply embedded that they go unnoticed (until someone says something like that!) but still inform a massive amount of the sexual violence against women and girls.

The idea that if a man's brain is prompted to think of sex then he turns into a raping animal and well he can't help that. So women and girls need to 'protect themselves'.

As soon as girls get to a certain point of puberty their attire comes under scrutiny and the reason and judgment is simply around, will men out and about think she's looks good to fuck.

Certain clothes sending 'signals'. What? I mean seriously what? Women and girls who wear short skirts are looking to be raped? I mean. What? Seriously?

And etc and so on.

The general societal view is that men need sex. Men are entitled to sex. If men don't get sex they will go around raping. (Really? I mean again. What?).

The BBC piece is just presenting that view and trying to spin it so it sounds like a decent thing to do. Same as all the high paid escort type stories that crop up. Oh and the I'm paying my way through uni it's great really flexible I'm in control of my hours...

I mean when you look at it, it's the same old shit being supported and excused as forever.

'Next up, we can expect sex work for those poor elderly men in nursing care. "
`That already happens.''

I read a thing about women being, well. Ordered I suppose? I mean it's the net or a phone call right? By people working in homes for some of the men.

One in particular it said he was sexually inappropriate with female staff a lot. He liked throttling IIRC. Was violent?

Anyway they said he was vulnerable and so bringing in the women was risk assessed for him.

I just thought.

Plenty of women who sell sex are vulnerable. Did they get a risk assessment?

Were they warned that he could be violent?

It was all about the bloke and his needs.

Not needs. Wants.

@RabbitOfCaerbannog

It's always based on the power imbalance of men having a need and women being the vessel which satisfies that need.

This sums up my opinion. Also the argument for it doesn’t make sense. Having a sex with a ‘surrogate’ (just writing that made me feel sick) is not the same as being in a relationship with and intimate with another person who actively wants to be with you.

This is state funded prostitution.

I want to know more about these ‘surrogates’- who are they, where do they come from.

The term surrogate feels so dehumanising.

@FrankensteinIsTheMonster

NiceGerbil I think from what I can make out, the therapist is a different person to the "surrogate"…?

The thing is that a lot of therapy depends on practising/carrying out what you've been working on in sessions, in between sessions. So for example, if you have CBT to help you with assertiveness, each week you'll have to practise assertiveness in real-world situations between sessions. If the area you need to work on is sex-related, then I guess it's difficult to work out how the actual work of change can be done unless the client has some way of carrying out what they've been learning in the therapy sessions, and that's where this "surrogate" comes in.

Then they should get sex therapy and other support to form healthy relationships. Not pay women to have sex with men. Just no. We need to work on a world that thinks and says no, this is not ok.

Yes women will likely always sell sex and some men too but normalisation isn't the answer. It's not ok to rent other people's bodies.

If you Google Netherlands and sex surrogacy you will probably find a fair bit, most of the articles I've seen before have been about there.

There's also @Babygotblueyes who has studied this and so may be able to provide some sources/ studies rather than the more mainstream articles you'll probably get from Google

I'm very troubled by how that article is written.

Its so sanitised. Dressed up as altruistic. Negative opinions dismissed as just being too hung up on sex. Like they are somehow so enlightened that they can do this without being emotionally scarred. That's its not what it really is.

If you want casual sex you are surely avke to go out and have it. Consensually. Take the talk therapy akd the medical rehab minus the sex.

If you want a meaningful long term relationship with someone you can trust and who understands the situation and us happy to go through it with you then do that.

Why does someone specifically need to have sex like this?

If you cant talk about it. If you cant calm it by its proper name. If giu have ti pretend it's something else so you feel less guilty or whatever, then should you be doing it.

I cant speak fir everyone but if I ever found out that a future partner actually felt like he'd done he a favour by having sex with prostitutes to "practice" for the real thing then he wouldn't be a partner for long.

Mumtee I agree there, was just trying to sort out what the actual situation is re: who exactly is having sex with the client i.e. not the therapist.

Agree mumtee

The normalisation of selling sex, and the watering down of what it means in real life. Not least by pushing the term sex work which includes a whole range of things. Has been really pushed hard over the last 20 years or so.

Loads of media including news sites like BBC have pushed out piece after piece essentially pushing the idea it's a job like any other and a good choice for women.

How and why? Why are so many women who think of themselves as feminists following the sex work is work line? I find it genuinely baffling.

Encouraging male sense of entitlement to sex with people (women) whether the other person wants it or not can never be a good thing. It's just obvious to me.

The things from the Netherlands i read it's the therapist who has sex with the client.

Google gave this which might help inform

dutchreview.com/culture/relationships/sex-care-in-the-netherlands-helping-the-disabled-find-intimacy/