NHS staff invitation to menopause workshop to people who menstruate!

[sunshineandhappy]

I received a generic email from the well being team at the nhs trust I am employed by inviting me to a managing menopause workshop which was open to 'people who menstruate or people who will go through the menopause'.
This was my reply I was disappointed to see the following phrase ‘those who menstruate or those who will go through the menopause ‘ in the below email. The correct phrase for the target audience should surely include the word women, even if the other phrasing needs to be used as well, as this clumsy phrasing, whilst appearing to be inclusive to a minority, is actually exclusive to the way the vast majority of the target audience for this seminar may feel. I do not want to be reduced to being a person who menstruates or a person who will go through the menopause, I am a woman, an adult human female. I hope my opinion will be considered in the spirit in which it is meant, as all groups matter, and all relevant individuals should be considered when generic emails are being sent to a large number of staff.'
We will wait to see whether I receive any response

Okay well transgender men find it offensive. So the best way for it to be put is to refer to 'people who...' And go from there. If it said men and women I imagine there would be more outrage from women so it is a healthy compromise.

Its good thats its being challenged men are rarely if ever referred to as "persons" why should women accept this role and roll over to it forget it all or nothing

[quote Lifeaintalwaysempty]@ASugarr the vast vast majority are so this workshop should have addressed their needs by saying ‘women and’ at the least[/quote]
So you are happy for trans men to be discriminated against and uncomfortable? Why do their views not matter? Most women are fine with inclusive language.

@ASugarr - I disagree that it doesn't discriminate- I think it really does- as many women do who don't believe inclusivity means the removal of all sex based language. And let's not forget- most of the literature for men, doesn't say person with a prostrate, or person with a penis- they have keys the language of men- why is that?

[quote SD1978]@ASugarr - I disagree that it doesn't discriminate- I think it really does- as many women do who don't believe inclusivity means the removal of all sex based language. And let's not forget- most of the literature for men, doesn't say person with a prostrate, or person with a penis- they have keys the language of men- why is that? [/quote]
The term woman isn't sex based language. It is gender. Female maybe however that is still uncomfortable for many. The changes are gradually being made to men however the backlash is going to be way worse so they are taking it step by step.

Is this a clinical talk aimed at providing education on menopause/perimenopause to staff who will be seeing female patients with it? In which case I’d ask if they thought what proportion of the patient population will see themselves as “people who menstruate” rather than women and possibly asking about an impact assessment for this? They risk excluding g a number of women with this wording. In which case, they may be failing in their duty of care.
If it’s for staff wellbeing, I’d ask something similar about exclusion of female staff who may not recognise themselves in this description. Who does it exclude and did they assess that?

Absolutely, we have your back here @sunshineandhappy - I'm really interested to hear their further response - particularly to the prostate/testicular cancer workshop, I really do hope it is for people with penises or testicles.

It makes me SO angry that the tiny weeny proportion of the population who are trans have created such a stink that we are no longer allowed to be called women. I am a woman. I don't menstruate (coil fitted) but I am peri menopausal. I don't understand why they just can't say women and those who menstruate.

I will not be defined as a person who menstruates, person who will go through the menopause in the same way I do not wish to be defined by any of my other bodily functions. I'm not going to start filling in forms and answer gender questions with 'person who farts'.

Do they not see the pendulum has swung so far the other way it's come off it's bracket? I honestly despair for the future, particularly as the parent of a painfully woke teen

The changes are gradually being made to men however the backlash is going to be way worse so they are taking it step by step.

Sorry, do you mean men's language is also being changed but they are objecting louder and being pandered to?

What it boils down to, is, who is supposed to be the audience?
If you are talking about natural menopause at age 50, you are not including transwomen in that audience. So it's ok to say "women, and others who are experiencing natural cessation of periods". If it's a transhealth session for transmen, it's not for people who think of themselves as women, so say "workshop for transmen and non binary people".
Why are we tying ourselves in knots?

The term woman isn't sex based language. It is gender.

Nonsense.

The term woman isn't sex based language. It is gender. Female maybe however that is still uncomfortable for many. The changes are gradually being made to men however the backlash is going to be way worse so they are taking it step by step

🤣🤣 it really isn’t. Only for the small percentage of people on Twitter who believe so.

And isn’t that revealing? You see that the rights of transmen - females - are put on the back burner for fear of upsetting men. Whereas the rights of transwomen - males - are front and centre because no one cares if women get upset.

In the words of the great Roy Walker, you’re close...just say what you see.

@ASugarr

And why do you think the backlash by men is going to be way worse? Why not rip off the bandaid and go all out for people and persons everywhere? Why target women first?

ASugarr, the guidelines you linked which you say you have to follow, state avoid making any groups of people feel excluded there is a group of people here, stating they feel excluded by phrases which avoid the use of the word “woman”. As evidenced by the NHS’s own website, it shows that phrases such as “All women and people with a cervix” www.nhs.uk/conditions/cervical-screening/
are acceptable.
This begs the question, why are you not following the guidelines you yourself linked and you yourself told us you have to follow?

Read their response. Fuck them. Fuck everyone trying to diminish the presence of WOMEN in this world

@EyesOpening

ASugarr, the guidelines you linked which you say you have to follow, state avoid making any groups of people feel excluded there is a group of people here, stating they feel excluded by phrases which avoid the use of the word “woman”. As evidenced by the NHS’s own website, it shows that phrases such as “All women and people with a cervix” www.nhs.uk/conditions/cervical-screening/ are acceptable. This begs the question, why are you not following the guidelines you yourself linked and you yourself told us you have to follow?

Well all women don't have a cervix so that's why the term woman isn't used.

@ASugarr

Okay well transgender men find it offensive. So the best way for it to be put is to refer to 'people who...' And go from there. If it said men and women I imagine there would be more outrage from women so it is a healthy compromise.

So all transmen are happy with being literally defined as someone who menstruates?

Maybe that is what we need to do, by that, I mean 1000 women book to go to an event that is not necessary for women.

The changes are gradually being made to men however the backlash is going to be way worse so they are taking it step by step.
This would indicate to me, another group of people who feel excluded by the language.
A group of people who are either even more unhappy or more vocal.
So again not following the guidelines you yourself posted, that you yourself told us you have to follow

“avoid making any groups of people feel excluded”

service-manual.nhs.uk/service-standard/5-make-sure-everyone-can-use-the-service

I really struggle with this as I have to send out messages in my workplace but have the equality lead in my ear a lot. We recently had a staff survey where no one stated they identified as different to their birth sex so I’m using that as evidence to back sticking to normal language or being general “are you experiencing menopause? Come along to a helpful webinar full of tips to support you.”

We recently introduced gender neutral toilets and they wanted to put that on the sign. I pushed back and said “toilet” is all it needs to say!

“Well all women don't have a cervix so that's why the term woman isn't used”
Except it was used
“All women and people with a cervix aged 25 to 64 should be invited by letter.”

www.nhs.uk/conditions/cervical-screening/

And by acknowledging that there would be a backlash from men, it acknowledges that the word “men” is not gendered language and is not widely accepted as gendered and defining of females also, otherwise why would anyone need to worry about a backlash?

Men don’t menstruate - only women (and girls approaching womanhood ) do.

For most people woman is a sex term , adult human female.

If you make woman a term where anyone can be a woman if they feel like it then we need a new word for adult human female , so it can be said in one word and not three for ease. Language is there for a reason.

Let's not pretend this is about making transmen feel included. There's an easy way to do that: 'women and transmen'. None of the transmen I know want to be defined by their female body parts! If anything this language is the worst it could be for transmen, even worse than it is for women.
This is about appeasing a tiny vocal minority of male-bodied transpeople (most transwomen have got far more sense than to think a menopause workshop applies to them and wouldn't give it a second glance) who the workshop is not even meant to be catering for.

*The term woman isn't sex based language. It is gender. Female maybe however that is still uncomfortable for many. The changes are gradually being made to men however the backlash is going to be way worse so they are taking it step by step.

Don’t you mean ‘people with penises’? Or males?

@ASugarr

Okay well transgender men find it offensive. So the best way for it to be put is to refer to 'people who...' And go from there. If it said men and women I imagine there would be more outrage from women so it is a healthy compromise.

Nice one ASugarr putting men before women in your comment making it crystal clear who you think are the default humans, no misogyny here, oh no.

It is not a healthy compromise, Women's Health matters need to place women front and centre, no ifs, buts, or maybes, woman is the default, not men, not people who identify as, women, adult human females to do anything else is excluding, dehumanising and dangerous.