NHS staff invitation to menopause workshop to people who menstruate!

[sunshineandhappy]

I received a generic email from the well being team at the nhs trust I am employed by inviting me to a managing menopause workshop which was open to 'people who menstruate or people who will go through the menopause'.
This was my reply I was disappointed to see the following phrase ‘those who menstruate or those who will go through the menopause ‘ in the below email. The correct phrase for the target audience should surely include the word women, even if the other phrasing needs to be used as well, as this clumsy phrasing, whilst appearing to be inclusive to a minority, is actually exclusive to the way the vast majority of the target audience for this seminar may feel. I do not want to be reduced to being a person who menstruates or a person who will go through the menopause, I am a woman, an adult human female. I hope my opinion will be considered in the spirit in which it is meant, as all groups matter, and all relevant individuals should be considered when generic emails are being sent to a large number of staff.'
We will wait to see whether I receive any response

Why not? Are we not people anymore?

If it’s understandably not OK - that is, not inclusive - to say ‘person with autism’ (presumably autistic people are also people?), then why is it OK to ‘person who menstruates’?

@ASugarr

As someone who works alongside the NHS surely you know this is in line with their language guidelines right? That it is totally normal and the right language? service-manual.nhs.uk/content/inclusive-language

Your link is to guidance for those producing written content for NHS Digital Services Online.

At the very beginning of the Manual it states
It's meant as a guide, not a rulebook. You're welcome to adapt a style pattern if it does not meet your users' needs.

In the Inclusive Language section under Sex, Gender and Sexuality it says
This section should help you get started but the best thing is to test your content and services with the people who use them.
and
We use the phrase "sex assigned at birth" when we're talking about trans health and gender dysphoria, as this is the language our audience uses. In other cases, we use "the sex someone was registered with at birth" because user research shows that most people understand this better as it refers to an actual event.

I used to write for the NHS for a living. If I were adhering closely to the quoted guidance and writing for a general audience I might say something like "Women and anyone whose sex was registered female at birth". I prefer tiktok's suggestion "In this [insert type of publication] we use the word 'woman' to refer to biological sex, not gender identity or gender expression" though. It's much more elegant and something like that is what I would push for at the editorial meeting.

Women is a dirty word now. The word women has been taken over by men just as they have taken everything else belonging to us.

That workshop sounds the opposite of fun

That would then get a lot of women [sic] who have never, will never and biologically would never menstruate or experience the cessation of menstruation turning up for at least one workshop.

Haven't heard of any hot flush fetishists as it's apparently all about being a Girl but I suppose some must, along with others who desperately want to believe that they also share this stage of life.

Is this what it comes down to? Women have to choose between dehumanising language or put up with the fact that men might invade their medical sessions?

This is one of the reasons this trend needs to be be put to bed pronto. The solution suggested in the thread, where the word woman is used, but a clear explanation of whom that word includes is the way to go.

The solution needs to be aimed at ensuring women are comfortable and well served, not at attempting to ensure men who claim they are women are not offended. To prioritise those men is sexism, plain and simple.

I'll wait and see if I get any more responses. When I asked for my complaint to be escalated I did actually ask if the phrase people with prostates was to be used as the opposite phrase! I'll keep everyone posted.
Thank you so much for everyone's support sometimes I feel like I'm on my own with feeling so strongly about this type of wording, it's good to know I'm not, which gives me the courage to challenge it. Part of me is waiting for the summons to attend more equality and diversity training though!!

@sunshineandhappy

You are not alone in feeling strongly about this, thank you for standing up for all of us.

Thank you for that information. I appreciate it. However as someone who works alongside the NHS now this type of language is being used as its more correct and doesn't discriminate.

@DaisiesandButtercups
Hear hear

Well done @sunshineandhappy

Keep us up to date sunshineandhappy, you’re not alone, we’ve got your back

In the link for NHS digital posted upthread it says:
Design and build digital services for the NHS
Use the service manual to build consistent, usable services that put people first.

Then goes on to say here

service-manual.nhs.uk/service-standard/5-make-sure-everyone-can-use-the-service

understand who the most vulnerable users for your service are and include them in user research, for example: people with access needs, people with low socio-economic status (D and E), older people, and black and minority ethnic people

design for low digital and health literacy

(Presumably for people whom English is not their first language or other reasons their comprehension levels may make words less readily understandable)

make sure you do not exclude any groups your service serves, for example because they lack digital skills or internet access, and you provide assisted digital support to cover any gaps

avoid making any groups of people feel excluded

(It also says it’s
'Beta' means that we think it's good enough to share but we're still testing it.)

The NHS website go on to use phrases such as:
“All women and people with a cervix aged 25 to 64 should be invited by letter.”
here www.nhs.uk/conditions/cervical-screening/

(And incidentally “The prostate is a small gland in the pelvis, found only in men.
www.nhs.uk/conditions/prostate-cancer/ )

Therefore by their own standards, saying “women and ....” is preferable to avoid making any groups of people feel excluded

@ASugarr

As someone who works alongside the NHS surely you know this is in line with their language guidelines right? That it is totally normal and the right language? service-manual.nhs.uk/content/inclusive-language

The “right language” according to whom? Who gets to say how Women want to be referred to? How about asking Women?

Well done sunshineandhappy - I look forward to hearing any further responses.

And yes the term ‘people who menstruate’ does imply to me that it’s a trans man so someone who doesn’t self id as a woman. I’m a woman so might think the course was not actually relevant to me, being simply a woman . Because if it was for women it would say that ! I think the language discriminates against women , the 99% of people this course refers to, the adult human female woman type of person.

@ASugarr

Thank you for that information. I appreciate it. However as someone who works alongside the NHS now this type of language is being used as its more correct and doesn't discriminate.

It discriminates against me. I am the target audience, being a woman in perimenopause. By definition most of us are late 40s or early 50s. I find the language of calling me a "menstruate" deeply uncomfortable. When I was a teen we didn't talk about these things. Periods were called "the curse". We never discussed them except in hushed and horrified tones.

One of the principles of marketing and advertising is to speak to your audience. It matters very much to me that if I were to attend that meeting, which would be brave of me because women my age we don't need help, we muddle through or maybe go to our own doctor if we really can't take it any more, that only female presenting people attend. It makes me a terrible bigot but many trans men pass very well if a male presenting bearded transman were there I would find that uncomfortable. I would read that person as male and probably quietly slip out.

I really think two separate workshops may be needed. Does a transman not perhaps have different medical needs in relation to periods and menopause, particularly since their menopause may be induced very early by cross sex hormones?
One of my huge bugbears with political correctness in general is that it tries to deny difference exists as if noticing difference is bad or bigoted. There is nothing wrong with being different. I think a workshop on induced menopause for trans people would be a hugely important and welcome event. But it would and should be different in emphasis, discussion and tone from one for born women who are just at perimenopause age.

I and others of my generation would be much more likely to attend a workshop clearly for women than for menstruators. The word makes me cringe.
Similarly a young transman in their 20s doesn't want to sit amongst 50 year old women learning about natural menopause in a way that has little relevance to them. Plus I highly doubt many transmen would enjoy being called a "menstruator" either, as it reduces them to a hugely triggering biological function.

So in attempting to be inclusive this phrasing conflates the needs of two separate groups and alienates both.
" correct and non discriminatory?" LISTEN to your bloody audience.

Well done for challenging OP. It’s a disgrace. They’ve gone out of their to avoid even saying ‘women and.... ‘ but guaranteed they won’t do the same for male based biological issues. We have to keep challenging this.

Not everyone who menstruates is a woman.

That’s really thorough and aligns with my understanding, eyesopening.

Any service provider that is offering services to the NHS through the digital marketplace/gcloud etc and has successfully gone through the RFI/tender process to be selected would have had to demonstrate compliance to a whole raft of standards.

Okay well it isn't calling you a 'Menstrator' its calling you a person. And you are a person.

Well said diverze

Indeed, I presume it might well be triggering for TM and NB people to be in workshop with a group of women, talking about female biological functions. The person running the workshop might also be put in an awkward position by having to keep chopping and changing their terminology depending to whom they are talking, as might the women who are not TM or NB. Having two separate workshops might be a huge relief all round

@ASugarr

Thank you for that information. I appreciate it. However as someone who works alongside the NHS now this type of language is being used as its more correct and doesn't discriminate.

Lots of responses from women saying how offensive and dehumanising they find this, yet you pop up to say this language is correct? Listen to yourself for once, would you? Women find this language offensive and discriminatory - this matters too.

@ASugarr the vast vast majority are so this workshop should have addressed their needs by saying ‘women and’ at the least

Speaking a someone who has gone through both a medically induced pseudo menopause and a natural menopause, I can confirm that the two experiences are poles apart. There is no way that a single workshop could cater to both audiences.

Does your trust have a women's health directorate OP? You might want to mention this and include the clinical director in your correspondence.