NHS staff invitation to menopause workshop to people who menstruate!

[sunshineandhappy]

I received a generic email from the well being team at the nhs trust I am employed by inviting me to a managing menopause workshop which was open to 'people who menstruate or people who will go through the menopause'.
This was my reply I was disappointed to see the following phrase ‘those who menstruate or those who will go through the menopause ‘ in the below email. The correct phrase for the target audience should surely include the word women, even if the other phrasing needs to be used as well, as this clumsy phrasing, whilst appearing to be inclusive to a minority, is actually exclusive to the way the vast majority of the target audience for this seminar may feel. I do not want to be reduced to being a person who menstruates or a person who will go through the menopause, I am a woman, an adult human female. I hope my opinion will be considered in the spirit in which it is meant, as all groups matter, and all relevant individuals should be considered when generic emails are being sent to a large number of staff.'
We will wait to see whether I receive any response

appin, hermitslife, needchoos, solidarity fistbump to you.

We matter. Our feelings matter. It’s OK to stand up for them

Don’t forget OP, as I mentioned upthread, the NHS itself uses phrases such as “women and people with a cervix”
and says to avoid making any groups of people feel excluded
under its post
Make sure everyone can use the service

@EyesOpening

Don’t forget OP, as I mentioned upthread, the NHS itself uses phrases such as “women and people with a cervix” and says to avoid making any groups of people feel excluded under its post Make sure everyone can use the service

Call them out on their own guidelines. This stuff sneaks through because of a few well meaning/ignorant/ideologically minded people. We need to draw attention to it. Again. And again. And again.

Until it stops.

🦡🌈🤍

@Diverze

What it boils down to, is, who is supposed to be the audience? If you are talking about natural menopause at age 50, you are not including transwomen in that audience. So it's ok to say "women, and others who are experiencing natural cessation of periods". If it's a transhealth session for transmen, it's not for people who think of themselves as women, so say "workshop for transmen and non binary people". Why are we tying ourselves in knots?

If you use the term ‘women, and others who are experiencing natural cessation of periods’ it excludes women who have had hysterectomies as that is not a natural cessation of periods.

The most inclusive term is ‘women’

@sunshineandhappy yes, please do keep us updated. I would be very interested to hear what their response to your question about the terminology they use/intend to use for men. If they are not going down the same road (i.e people who have a prostate or similar), then I think they will really have to be pressed by you/your complaints system to give a coherent answer as to why that is.

@ASugarr

Okay well transgender men find it offensive. So the best way for it to be put is to refer to 'people who...' And go from there. If it said men and women I imagine there would be more outrage from women so it is a healthy compromise.

Yet I and many many women find ‘people who menstruate’ offensive- so exactly why is that the best way to go? What would be wrong with a compromise in language so that both women and transgender men are recognised for who they are? Well- Transgender women would feel excluded as they consider themselves women. Be honest and admit this is not to do with transgender men it is to do with including transgender women in the category of ‘women’ which means that term can’t be used in conjunction with periods. Because they don’t have them. Because they have male anatomy. This is all about transgender women, not women or transgender men. Biological males still at the centre of everything, even period workshops.

Could they just have said “open to anyone who expects to go through the menopause in the future” and avoided tying themselves in knots?

@transbadger I agree with you about calling every instance out - the more we just let things slide, the argument in the future for this language will be that its been in place for ages and 'no-one has complained'.

I also wonder what would happen if, everytime someone uses the word man, women ask 'do you mean prostate owner?' (or similar) to highlight the disparity.

How mad has the world gone that we have a word that neatly defines all those ‘people who experience periods and/or will go through the menopause’ but we are not allowed to use it.
Apologies for feeding trolling, will not facilitate any further derailment!

I would complain about that too

Ah, because it’s not just females that menstruate or go through menopause right? Right? No?

StillAFemale:

In my example, in my opinion, Women who have had a hysterectomy are covered by "women". It's women and....

Well done for calling out this nonsense. They get away with it because women who object don’t make their voices heard, and the very vocal but tiny minority get their way

Thats a really good question SaturdayRocks and given the latest language used something I have wondered about too.

Thank you for raising this @sunshineandhappy. Please keep us updated.

@sunshineandhappy

Thank you! As a woman who is entering this stage in her life I thank you for being brave enough to voice your concerns.

I want to be referred to as a woman. I don’t give a toss how others are referred to within literature, as I have the capacity to read and understand that it is being inclusive by including others who don’t identify as women but who menstruate. And because I have that capacity I see no reason why the word woman should not be used.

As someone said above, keep on topic of the thread. Don’t let this one get deleted.

[quote OhDear2200]@sunshineandhappy

Thank you! As a woman who is entering this stage in her life I thank you for being brave enough to voice your concerns.

I want to be referred to as a woman. I don’t give a toss how others are referred to within literature, as I have the capacity to read and understand that it is being inclusive by including others who don’t identify as women but who menstruate. And because I have that capacity I see no reason why the word woman should not be used.[/quote]

Yes.

You don't take away my descriptor because someone else doesn't like it being applied to them.

Totally! OhDear2200.
That is a really good point. If I can understand when something is or isn’t for me. Other parties should be ‘kind’ and appreciative that not everything is about them...sometimes.

I’m asking for the same consideration as other groups of people. Address me using the correct description, the description I identify with, that is comfortable for me.

You don't take away my descriptor because someone else doesn't like it being applied to them.

This a million times. No-one and I mean no-one will refer to me as a person who...., I do not consent to being dehumanised, disregarded, dismissed and insulted.

The bit I don't get is what there is to feel upset by.

If a workshop is advertised for genderqueer people to explore notions of personhood or somesuch, I don't take offence at being excluded. I am not the target market.

If a workshop is advertised for men who have had prostate cancer, I walk on by knowing it isn't for me.

If a workshop is advertised for women to discuss issues relating to surviving domestic abuse, I thank my lucky stars that that workshop isn't appropriate or relevant for me to attend.

I don't get offended that things are offered to classes of people that don't include me.

I find it really hard to believe that 99.9 percent of transwomen would see a workshop advertising advice around the menopause to "women" and feel like it's a personal insult to them. I suspect this is much more an issue in the minds of the very "right on" than to most transpeople, the majority of whom are just trying to live their life in peace and as they feel they need.

Thank you so much for everyone's support sometimes I feel like I'm on my own with feeling so strongly about this type of wording, it's good to know I'm not, which gives me the courage to challenge it

You're not alone @sunshineandhappy Thank you for protesting against the dehumanising of women.

The time has come where it has to be faced:

Is it necessary to prove that you have dehumanised, erased and subordinated/removed things from female humans in order to be seen as sufficiently pro trans?

Because increasingly equality isn't what is being sought for. It's about a hierarchy and making very clear who matters and who all these nice words don't apply to. And that isn't inclusion or equality or promoting good feeling between groups or diversity, it's just quite straight forward discrimination against female people on the grounds of it being 'positive discrimination'.