NHS staff invitation to menopause workshop to people who menstruate!

[sunshineandhappy]

I received a generic email from the well being team at the nhs trust I am employed by inviting me to a managing menopause workshop which was open to 'people who menstruate or people who will go through the menopause'.
This was my reply I was disappointed to see the following phrase ‘those who menstruate or those who will go through the menopause ‘ in the below email. The correct phrase for the target audience should surely include the word women, even if the other phrasing needs to be used as well, as this clumsy phrasing, whilst appearing to be inclusive to a minority, is actually exclusive to the way the vast majority of the target audience for this seminar may feel. I do not want to be reduced to being a person who menstruates or a person who will go through the menopause, I am a woman, an adult human female. I hope my opinion will be considered in the spirit in which it is meant, as all groups matter, and all relevant individuals should be considered when generic emails are being sent to a large number of staff.'
We will wait to see whether I receive any response

OP, I agree with you and others that this language is not acceptable, and I don't like the sometimes suggested addition of 'and people who [mestruate; have a cervix; are pregnant] etc etc' after the word 'woman'.

One solution would be for all invitations, leaflets, posters and so on targeted at females to include this simple one line:

'In this [insert type of publication] we use the word 'woman' to refer to biological sex, not gender identity or gender expression.'

It could be in a small font, but still readable.

Do you think your equality and diversity people would accept that?

I would write to who ever sent you the email and say you are deeply uncomfortable about being referred to as a person who menstruates and find it deeply distasteful that women are being referred to by their bodily functions rather than their sex and ask that they might consider not doing that anymore because you find it grossly offensive. The more women who make this an issue the sooner it can stop happening.

The workshop on prostate health will be advertised to men though.

"Well I feel excluded and offended by this wording, which is discriminatory and dehumanising to female people, and borders upon gynephobic in making the word 'woman' for female people a thing too shocking and unpleasant to say. Language and equality should strive for the diversity to include all equally instead of merely choosing which group is the current fashion to exclude and subordinate."

@tiktok

OP, I agree with you and others that this language is not acceptable, and I don't like the sometimes suggested addition of 'and people who [mestruate; have a cervix; are pregnant] etc etc' after the word 'woman'.

One solution would be for all invitations, leaflets, posters and so on targeted at females to include this simple one line:

'In this [insert type of publication] we use the word 'woman' to refer to biological sex, not gender identity or gender expression.'

It could be in a small font, but still readable.

Do you think your equality and diversity people would accept that?

Perfect

The equality and diversity people will not accept that, as there will be some people who will feel that the word woman should never be attached to the concept of biological sex as this is exclusionary and triggering for them.

However there is nothing to argue with in accepting that everyone has the right to the wording they are comfortable with instead of equality being a hierarchy, and that no one should be labelled in a way they are uncomfortable with or reduced to body parts. Either these concepts apply equally to all or they shouldn't apply to anyone at all.

Women AND .... . covers all bases. For some people, biological sex is how they view, define and prefer to label themselves. For some people, other views, definitions and labels are preferable. Inclusion: we add.

The word for the people whose bodies do these things is 'women' .
The bodies of people who are men do not .
Some women are shy , very private . Some women are culturally bound to keep bodily functions private or English may be a second or third language . Some women , me included , don't want our sex-based functions to be discussed so publicly and in such crude , inelegant terms .
Also , if I attended a menstruation or menopause workshop and there was a man there - however he was dressed or 'presenting' , I would feel fucking uncomfortable and would leave . I endured enough shame and embarrassment regarding menarche and menstruation from boys at school and from men in my adult life , I certainly wouldn't have wanted to suffer any more through my menopause .
Women need 'women only' spaces for their women's things . Why won't men be kind and respectful and leave us the fuck alone ?

For trans men or non-binary employees? I don’t think I’d be as bothered about this tbh.

On a scale of 1-10, how likely would it be that any NHS transmen (going through an early menopause due to cross sex hormones) would feel comfortable to attend such a meeting?

So who is this performative for?

I really hope there aren't people who fetishise menopause, it's a grim thought

Well, we know there are menstrual fetishisers. Interestingly, they are rarely people who have ever menstruated or had the potential to menstruate.

Or should I just say: women.

I thought I'd be bereft when my periods stopped - life possibilities lost & all that. But I wasn't - it was such a relief! No more pain, no more worrying about leakage. (A year of panic & sense of being a bit out of control and being more anxious than I had ever been for no reason was another thing, but bearable).

@sunshineandhappy

This is the reply!

'We know language can be an emotive subject and that gender language in particular has evolved a lot in recent times. We took advice from our Equality, Diversity and Inclusion specialists in relation to what terminology to use that reflected who these sessions were aimed at and had a lot of discussions before settling on this wording.

We appreciate it won’t suit everyone in the same way that saying they were for women won’t suit everyone - as indeed comments from staff reflected that when this was used previously.'

I've asked for my complaint to be referred to the equality diversity and inclusion specialists as I don't feel included by this.

So they are going to go with pleasing the people it doesn’t apply to

that women are being referred to by their bodily functions rather than their sex and ask that they might consider not doing that anymore because you find it grossly offensive

And exclusionary!

I would ask them how they refer to men, eg for prostate stuff. Is it people who ejaculate? people with penises? that would include most trans women so how does that work? Or do they just use the perfectly sensible word MEN? I would keep asking until they answer this.

@MichelleofzeResistance, I think it would be worth challenging any Equal and Diversity policy/panel on this.

It is only the far edge of this debate where there is a denial that biology is real and material and in females, linked to menstruation and menopause...you know, the people who tell us 'but sex and gender are different' and then proceed to confuse the two when it suits their agenda. Sex and gender identity/expression are different, and anyone should be free to express themselves or otherwise identify themselves vis a vis gender.

I'm trying hard to keep to MN rules about what I can and can't say about the majority of people understanding that biology remains, whatever interventions have taken place surgically or pharmacologically in any individual.

It's a shame if some individuals really cannot cope with seeing the 'W' word linked with menstruation, and are upset or triggered to the extent they cannot cope, but I'd suggest working in the health service is perhaps not well suited to them. In the same way, a workshop on grieving or bereavement may well be triggering to someone who's experienced loss....but expecting some sort of euphemism to avoid either word is not usually asked for.

@DaisiesandButtercups

They should do two separate workshops, one for women and one for “menstruators or people who will go through the menopause”

What a brilliant idea. I wonder how many people will turn up to the second one.

I recently attended a menopause talk at work and the doctor presenting started by explaining she would use the word woman but included transmen and non binary individuals, ok fine. Then throughout the talk she twisted herself up in knots trying to avoid the word woman, using "those in possession of a uterus" etc. It was pretty cringy.

Thank you Cowbells, my reasoning is yes it will be interesting to see how many turn up to the second but primarily the two groups may have quite irreconcilably different needs when it comes to language and approach. Many women, myself included, would find a single sex and woman centred environment the most helpful and effective to discuss the menopause and its impact. It would also avoid the distracting and uncomfortable language mangling described by BoeotianNightmare.

The whole people who menstruate / menstruators language is just so useless.

I'm not menstruating now. Will my next period come? Dunno. Women and girls can start and stop. Pregnancy, illness, breast feeding, peri menopause... It's not an ongoing process! I'm in peri... Will I get another period or not? No idea

Menstruation is not the common word. In English most people talk about periods. Or a host of euphemisms. Does everyone know what menstrustion means?

The main thing thought of about menopause is stopping periods, signalling an end to reproductive age. It's not very sensitive to refer to women by this thing, surely? Also peri is linking to unpredictable periods, sometimes very heavy flow. Again. It's not very sensitive is it.

In short. That's shit.

As someone who works alongside the NHS surely you know this is in line with their language guidelines right? That it is totally normal and the right language? service-manual.nhs.uk/content/inclusive-language

@ASugarr

As someone who works alongside the NHS surely you know this is in line with their language guidelines right? That it is totally normal and the right language? service-manual.nhs.uk/content/inclusive-language

It might be the ‘right’ language according to some zealots, but it’s not inclusive for the majority of women.

Ginghamstarfish, I agree with your idea of asking what language they are using when referring to men. If it isn't 'people with prostates' or similar, why not?

Maybe because of my age- I dont know. But when I see anything targeting people who menstruate, I don't find this language inclusive of me as a woman- and wouldn't attend, as I look at this and assume it's for those who no longer accept their gender as female, but their biology and sex are female.

@Waitwhat23

Ginghamstarfish, I agree with your idea of asking what language they are using when referring to men. If it isn't 'people with prostates' or similar, why not?

Apparently the NHS is beginning by targeting children, and then women. Men are not yet subject to the dehumanising language used for children and women.

Because men are more important. Obviously.

@SD1978

Maybe because of my age- I dont know. But when I see anything targeting people who menstruate, I don't find this language inclusive of me as a woman- and wouldn't attend, as I look at this and assume it's for those who no longer accept their gender as female, but their biology and sex are female.

Agreed.

I would also assume it’s for very specific members of the rainbow community. Not for me.

I think a critical thought process here is missed. The one that identifies the target audience.

Who is the workshop targeting? Females.
Therefore the language should be inclusive to females. No other group should trump this. Potentially alienating your target group to be “inclusive” to people outside your target group is ridiculous and incompetent.

Use Females, or Women and Trans people who menstruate. This way you are being fully inclusive to those who need to be included and not calling female trans people “women”.